New Boil Kettle In Existing Equipment Profile / Batch Volumes Are Off

[bobo1898]

Recently I altered something in my brewing system which inherently changes my equipment profile.

I switched my boil kettle from propane to electric and went ahead and purchased a steam condenser so I can brew indoors during winter. So I went ahead and ran a water test in the boil kettle to determine losses and boil off rate for my new equipment profile. I tend to brew 5.5 gallon batches with 5.5 to 5.75 gallons ending up in my fermenter (it used to fluctuate with propane based on weather conditions).

I was expecting a lower boil off rate, but oddly enough, it was the same. I boiled 6.5 gallons of water which seemed like a solid simulation. I ran this for 60 minutes and let this cool down over night rather than use waste water to chill the batch down (I use an immersion chiller). But while it was still hot, I hooked up my pump and simulated a whirlpool for 10 minutes. I shut off the pump and the valves, disconnected the hose and pump to drain that water loss into measuring cups so I could record their volumes. I did not wait for these small volume samples to cool down. The next morning, when the kettle volume was at room temp, I was at about 5.5 gallons indicating that my boil off rate was 1 gallon/hour. Then I drained the kettle completely and recorded the kettle loss volume in water (what was remaining in the kettle).

My mash tun did not change and neither did the rest of my gear. So I took my existing equipment profile and duplicated it, then edited the values within the profile. So all I changed was the loss to trub and chiller volumes.

My previous loss to trub and chiller was 0.30 gallons
My new loss to trub and chiller is 0.67 gallons

I brewed a mid-to-low gravity beer (1.050) with an inverted sugar addition in the 90 minute boil. To produce this beer, I needed 9.17 gallons of water. Beersmith suggested I would have a pre-boil volume of 7.92 gallons. When I finished sparging, my volume was lined up around 8 gallons with the wort being about 165 to 170 degrees. After 90 minutes, I whirlpooled and chilled. When I got down to about 72 degrees, I shut off the chiller and removed it.

I drained the kettle into the fermenter and ended up with 6.6 gallons. Which left me a gallon over where I needed to be. Granted, when I have late sugar additions in the boil, my volume is slightly more than usual. But it's not a gallon or more higher.

My boil off rate was the same as my test---1 gallon per 60 minutes (I account for the 0.10 gallons less boil off due to the sugar addition). I double checked my water volumes. The batch should have been:

5.5 gallons of 1.050 wort

I ended up with:

6.6 gallons of 1.046 wort

Even though I ended up with a lower gravity, my efficiency jumped somewhere, but I wouldn't expect it to be this much with only the boil kettle changing. But I can't account for the additional water. I duplicated the recipe and switched between equipment profiles, adding and removing water as an ingredient, but still get the same number---9.17 gallons to start.

I can't seem to figure out why I have this extra gallon of wort. Did I set up the new equipment profile wrong?

 

[stevebonny]

Recently I altered something in my brewing system which inherently changes my equipment profile.

I switched my boil kettle from propane to electric and went ahead and purchased a steam condenser so I can brew indoors during winter. So I went ahead and ran a water test in the boil kettle to determine losses and boil off rate for my new equipment profile. I tend to brew 5.5 gallon batches with 5.5 to 5.75 gallons ending up in my fermenter (it used to fluctuate with propane based on weather conditions).

I was expecting a lower boil off rate, but oddly enough, it was the same. I boiled 6.5 gallons of water which seemed like a solid simulation. I ran this for 60 minutes and let this cool down over night rather than use waste water to chill the batch down (I use an immersion chiller). But while it was still hot, I hooked up my pump and simulated a whirlpool for 10 minutes. I shut off the pump and the valves, disconnected the hose and pump to drain that water loss into measuring cups so I could record their volumes. I did not wait for these small volume samples to cool down. The next morning, when the kettle volume was at room temp, I was at about 5.5 gallons indicating that my boil off rate was 1 gallon/hour. Then I drained the kettle completely and recorded the kettle loss volume in water (what was remaining in the kettle).

My mash tun did not change and neither did the rest of my gear. So I took my existing equipment profile and duplicated it, then edited the values within the profile. So all I changed was the loss to trub and chiller volumes.

My previous loss to trub and chiller was 0.30 gallons
My new loss to trub and chiller is 0.67 gallons

I brewed a mid-to-low gravity beer (1.050) with an inverted sugar addition in the 90 minute boil. To produce this beer, I needed 9.17 gallons of water. Beersmith suggested I would have a pre-boil volume of 7.92 gallons. When I finished sparging, my volume was lined up around 8 gallons with the wort being about 165 to 170 degrees. After 90 minutes, I whirlpooled and chilled. When I got down to about 72 degrees, I shut off the chiller and removed it.

I drained the kettle into the fermenter and ended up with 6.6 gallons. Which left me a gallon over where I needed to be. Granted, when I have late sugar additions in the boil, my volume is slightly more than usual. But it's not a gallon or more higher.

My boil off rate was the same as my test---1 gallon per 60 minutes (I account for the 0.10 gallons less boil off due to the sugar addition). I double checked my water volumes. The batch should have been:

5.5 gallons of 1.050 wort

I ended up with:

6.6 gallons of 1.046 wort

Even though I ended up with a lower gravity, my efficiency jumped somewhere, but I wouldn't expect it to be this much with only the boil kettle changing. But I can't account for the additional water. I duplicated the recipe and switched between equipment profiles, adding and removing water as an ingredient, but still get the same number---9.17 gallons to start.

I can't seem to figure out why I have this extra gallon of wort. Did I set up the new equipment profile wrong?

I only just read this - it peaked my interest as I've seen similar volume errors. Did you figure out the error? I had a couple of comments/thoughts.

You left your water boil-off test to cool overnight. - If the lid was off, you would get a bunch of evaporation over the 12-24hrs of hot water cooling. Maybe not a gallon, but could be significant... unless you put the lid on for cool down.

I have seen some measurement error, just reading the volume in my kettle. It has a sight tube that also doubles up as the pump outlet tube. (G40). If you have a tube attached to the outlet and inadvertently let it dangle in the kettle it will make the kettle reading completely wrong by adding a pressure differential to the sight tube - this has caused a gallon error in volume reading - causing me to add an extra gallon.

I wonder if the boil off rates for water are the same as wort?

I've also seen significant variation in the kettle loss. Depending on how it is set up, sometimes the vortex drain effect will suck air into the pump and stop it draining. This happens when the bottom trub filter is not in place and will add about half a gallon to kettle loss.

One other thing I've noted with volume measurement in the kettle - the kettle expands and contracts with heat as well as the water/wort. If you take measurements off the kettle when it is hot there will be an error due to the kettle expanding/contracting.


My 2 cents!

 

[bobo1898]

Thanks for the response @stevebonny !

Did you figure out the error?

I have not figured out the error yet--was going to brew or do another water test in a week or two.

You left your water boil-off test to cool overnight. - If the lid was off, you would get a bunch of evaporation over the 12-24hrs of hot water cooling.

I left the lid off for an hour before putting it on and leaving it overnight.

I wonder if the boil off rates for water are the same as wort?

This is an interesting point. I imagine they aren't the same, but are at least similar? I think boiling point may be the question to ask here. I was hitting 211.5° consistently for the entire 90 minutes of the boil. When I did the water test, I only focused on the power percentage and the boil consistency. Again, water @ 35% power boiled off 1 gallon/hr which seems like a lot for a steam condenser. I set the same power for the wort but took note of the temp. Boil consistency was close to the water but would dip slightly when I'd add hops. Temp never went below 211°

Depending on how it is set up, sometimes the vortex drain effect will suck air into the pump and stop it draining.

This is a good point. My trub volume looked slightly smaller than it did when I did the water test, but I don't know if that is due to absorption or what. It's possible when I did the water test, it did not drain properly as you're suggesting. That being said, after I whirlpool and chill to temp, I let the kettle settle for 30 minutes, then drain. I cannot recall if I let the vortex settle for the water test so this is definitely an important thing to address.

the kettle expands and contracts with heat as well as the water/wort.

All loss measurements were done at room temp so I don't know if kettle expansion had any play in my tests.

This is looking more like an equipment or user issue rather than incorrect software input. I may fill the kettle to 3 or 4 gallons, whirlpool, and let it settle for 30 minutes. Then drain to see if my initial recordings were accurate for kettle loss. I wouldn't be surprised if my boil off rate is closer to 0.75 gallons/hr. That combined with an incorrect kettle loss reading, would make up for most of the additional wort I had.

If my kettle loss readings are the same, then I may need to redo the entire water test or brew a beer I'm willing to test on.

 

[stevebonny]

I did also change my process a little which has improved my water volume consistency. I'm not sure if my process is right or wrong or typical.....
I prepare about a gallon of extra water and prepare it all together in the boiler/mash tun. Add my salts, other corrections etc and then set the controller to strike temp. When it reaches strike temp, I take out the excess and put it in a separate hot water tank (actually my old boil pot). This just leaves the mash water volume in the boiler/mash tun. I dump in the grain and mash per normal. I have a 1kW stick heater in the hot water tank on a controller set to sparge temp, so while I'm mashing, it heats up the sparge water to sparge temp.
When mash is done, I raise the mash basket and sparge to the pre-boil volume. I stop sparging when I have the correct pre-boil volume.
This takes out any errors in grain absorption etc. It also leaves me a gallon of spare water if I need any top up later.

If I'm monkeying around with new equipment, I'll make a 1050 ale. If I'm out on volume I may end up with an extra gallon of 1040 ale which is awesome or I may end up with a gallon short of 1060, which is also awesome!! You can also top the latter up with water to correct it or accept it for the great new strong beer you just created!! I keep a couple of sterilized growlers on hand if my volume is high and won't fit in the keg.

 

[GigaFemto]

How are you measuring your volumes? The built-in markings on kettles are notoriously inaccurate. If that is what you are using, I suggest that you use a known accurate measuring vessel and transfer water 1/2 - 1 gallon at a time into your kettle to assess the accuracy of its markings at various levels. Write down kettle reading versus actual volume for future reference.

--GF

 

[bobo1898]

Thanks for the response @GigaFemto !

The built-in markings on kettles are notoriously inaccurate.

The new boil kettle is a Spike V4. My mash tun, while bought years ago, apparently is V4 as well (according to the order for that). I use the markings of the mash tun to measure and heat strike water. I know the mash tun is accurate because I use 1-gallon jugs of distilled water to fill it.

That being said, I haven't measured gallon by gallon in the boil kettle. But my pre-boil volume hit accurately according to it's markings. I can easily double check and make sure this is accurate though, just in case.

I prepare about a gallon of extra water and prepare it all together in the boiler/mash tun.

@stevebonny this seems like a good way to keep things consistent and give you control should anything go unexpected.

 

[stevebonny]

How are you measuring your volumes? The built-in markings on kettles are notoriously inaccurate. If that is what you are using, I suggest that you use a known accurate measuring vessel and transfer water 1/2 - 1 gallon at a time into your kettle to assess the accuracy of its markings at various levels. Write down kettle reading versus actual volume for future reference.

--GF

Good point GF. I use the sight glass on the kettle but have never checked how accurate it is!!

 

[Kevin58]

Regardless of whether the equipment has a reputation for having accurate markings I always weigh the water when checking volumes. A gallon of water weighs 8.34 pounds.

 

[stevebonny]

Regardless of whether the equipment has a reputation for having accurate markings I always weigh the water when checking volumes. A gallon of water weighs 8.34 pounds.

Good idea - should be more accurate than a kettle volume measurement - so long as your scale is accurate!! It would be tricky to check volumes mid-process though.

 

[GigaFemto]

That reminds me of a lunchtime conversation many years ago when someone said he remembers how much water weighs by the old saying "A pint's a pound the world around." The British guy at the table said that was wrong because he learned that "A pint of clear water weighs a pound and a quarter." Of course he made it rhyme with his accent and also pointed out that the British (at that time, anyway) used imperial gallons, which are larger than US gallons.

--GF

 

[stevebonny]

I'm British, living in America. The units are sure confusing, even fluid ounces are different. I just switched all my brewing stuff over to metric and completed my first metric brew today. Luckily, I learned that 2 and a quarter pounds of jam weighs about a kilogram.

 

[stevebonny]

Recently I altered something in my brewing system which inherently changes my equipment profile.

I switched my boil kettle from propane to electric and went ahead and purchased a steam condenser so I can brew indoors during winter. So I went ahead and ran a water test in the boil kettle to determine losses and boil off rate for my new equipment profile. I tend to brew 5.5 gallon batches with 5.5 to 5.75 gallons ending up in my fermenter (it used to fluctuate with propane based on weather conditions).

I was expecting a lower boil off rate, but oddly enough, it was the same. I boiled 6.5 gallons of water which seemed like a solid simulation. I ran this for 60 minutes and let this cool down over night rather than use waste water to chill the batch down (I use an immersion chiller). But while it was still hot, I hooked up my pump and simulated a whirlpool for 10 minutes. I shut off the pump and the valves, disconnected the hose and pump to drain that water loss into measuring cups so I could record their volumes. I did not wait for these small volume samples to cool down. The next morning, when the kettle volume was at room temp, I was at about 5.5 gallons indicating that my boil off rate was 1 gallon/hour. Then I drained the kettle completely and recorded the kettle loss volume in water (what was remaining in the kettle).

My mash tun did not change and neither did the rest of my gear. So I took my existing equipment profile and duplicated it, then edited the values within the profile. So all I changed was the loss to trub and chiller volumes.

My previous loss to trub and chiller was 0.30 gallons
My new loss to trub and chiller is 0.67 gallons

I brewed a mid-to-low gravity beer (1.050) with an inverted sugar addition in the 90 minute boil. To produce this beer, I needed 9.17 gallons of water. Beersmith suggested I would have a pre-boil volume of 7.92 gallons. When I finished sparging, my volume was lined up around 8 gallons with the wort being about 165 to 170 degrees. After 90 minutes, I whirlpooled and chilled. When I got down to about 72 degrees, I shut off the chiller and removed it.

I drained the kettle into the fermenter and ended up with 6.6 gallons. Which left me a gallon over where I needed to be. Granted, when I have late sugar additions in the boil, my volume is slightly more than usual. But it's not a gallon or more higher.

My boil off rate was the same as my test---1 gallon per 60 minutes (I account for the 0.10 gallons less boil off due to the sugar addition). I double checked my water volumes. The batch should have been:

5.5 gallons of 1.050 wort

I ended up with:

6.6 gallons of 1.046 wort

Even though I ended up with a lower gravity, my efficiency jumped somewhere, but I wouldn't expect it to be this much with only the boil kettle changing. But I can't account for the additional water. I duplicated the recipe and switched between equipment profiles, adding and removing water as an ingredient, but still get the same number---9.17 gallons to start.

I can't seem to figure out why I have this extra gallon of wort. Did I set up the new equipment profile wrong?

Shifting topic a little - I'm interested in your steam condenser. I've never used one but it seems like a great idea. Can you share which one you went with? Are you finding it works well? Any issues?
You mentioned that your boil off rates didn't seem to change, did you need to reduce the cooker power to run with this setup, to prevent boil over etc or is it still running at full power?
What is the power you are boiling at?

Thanks!! I'm quite interested in setting this up on my G40.

 

[bobo1898]

@stevebonny I bought the Steam Slayer from Brewhardware:

Steam Slayer 1.5'' TC Kettle Boil Steam Condenser Assembly

Brewhardware.com has built a solid reputation for offering the best retrofit sight glass kits available to the homebrew market with a consistent high level of customer support both pre and post sale. We feel a great sense of pride reading through all the positive reviews of our products and...

www.brewhardware.com

You can either go through the side wall of the kettle or through the lid. I chose the lid so I didn't lose any space in my kettle. This kit is DIY I think, but he offers installation options so it's brew-ready. I was moving on from my old boil kettle and bought a new one at the time so I had him do the labor and install it in the lid. I don't know if he sells lids solo if you want him to do it. You'll have to reach out. I tried to attach a picture but the Beersmith forum says the file is too large.

He has two versions---this one at the link above and a wide body version. He breaks it down on each page for their benefits. And then each one has different spray rates which correlates with your batch size. I bought the one in the link above and use the 6GPH sprayer for my 5.5 gallon batches. For 10 gallon batches he says 9GPH is adequate.

Here are two reviews I looked at before getting it:

Steam Slayer Review: Steam Condensing For Homebrewing

Hand's on review of the Steam Slayer. A steam condenser designed for homebrewing looking to deal with steam in their home breweries.

hazyandhoppy.com

The hazy and hoppy blog has it installed the way I do---through the lid and he uses the same one. While the YouTube link has it installed through the side wall, and he uses the wide body version.

So far, I love it. My brew day was much simpler than previously, partly because I moved right next to my utility sink. I have not had any DMS issues. You should get a lower boil off rate so you use less batch water (as I said in a previous post, the issues I ran into above are likely user error during the water test), although you're running this condenser at 6 gallons per hour, minimum. You just need to be near a cold water valve, or run a hose long enough to your brew area. I spent the last 5 years in Los Angeles and while I love brewing outdoors, I moved back home to Chicago. And the winters are no bueno. I don't know how I did it before LA. I also have a balcony and not a garage so I can't be covered when the weather conditions don't agree with my schedule. Electricity and rain aren't the best combination. Brewing indoors full time was the best option for me moving forward.

I know that Spike sells a condenser as well, but I'm not too familiar with it. I think their version includes the lid, but it's probably only for their kettles. Brewhardware allows you to customize to your setup.

The only issue I've run into is I'm still adjusting to removing my lid to add boil additions. The lid becomes side heavy when removing so when adding things that need stirring, like sugar or syrup, it's a bit tricky where I can place my lid where it won't fall. But that's more of a spacial issue rather than a product complaint. Spike's might have a door on the lid you can use for additions.

Hope this helps.

 

[bobo1898]

You mentioned that your boil off rates didn't seem to change, did you need to reduce the cooker power to run with this setup, to prevent boil over etc or is it still running at full power?
What is the power you are boiling at?

Forgot to answer these:

I'm running at 100% power, without the lid/condenser, until I reach my boil after hot break (adjusting percentages so I don't boil over). Then I reduce the power to 35% and put the lid/condenser on. With my condenser, during the water test, I made sure the output water from the condenser was under 140°F and I ended up around 35% power. His page has 32% and then he told me in a separate email when I purchased it that he actually does 26%.

Brewhardware says whatever you would normally boil at without a condenser, you would reduce your boil off. So if you were boiling at 50% power and your boil off rate was around 1.5 gallons per hour, with the steam condenser, if you boil at 25% power, you should be boiling off 0.75 gallons. Does that make sense?

I boiled water at 35% power with the steam condenser and recorded 1 gallon per hour. But as stated in the other post, I think there was user error. My actual brew day is likely more accurate of my boil off rate as opposed to the water test that recorded 1 gallon per hour. That in combination with my potential drain error that you suggested makes up for the additional wort, but I won't know for sure til I brew again. I'm going to redrain with just water to verify the kettle loss before then.

 

[stevebonny]

Thanks for the detailed feedback and info. I have a little research to do........ and some Christmas shopping

 

[stevebonny]

I ended up ordering the Brewzilla condenser.
My Grainfather G40 has a glass lid and I don't think I want to go through the side as it might interfere with the grain basket.... and as you commented it will reduce your capacity.
They sell a distilling lid for the G40 which has a 4" TC port right in the middle of the lid. The Brewzilla unit seems to be designed to go to the middle of the lid. It also has a 2" port that you can use to add hops etc. without removing the lid.
Right after I ordered the stuff, I thought, I could smack a 1.5" hole in the distillation lid near the outside and use a steam slayer. I could then use the 4" port for a sight glass and to add hops etc. Oh well, we'll see how this works.
I should get the hardware by this w/e but may have a fitting or 2 missing so I'm not sure if I will get to use it yet. Planning an Oktoberfest this w/e - better late than never!

 

[stevebonny]

I finally got my condenser setup and tested.... just with water so far.
My boil off rate worked out just like you suggested. I dropped the boil power to 35% from 100% (of 3500W) and the boil off reduced to a little over 1.5 liters/hr from 4.35L/h. Almost exactly in line with % power.
My water usage is a little higher with the brewzilla at about 12gal/hr.
I have it draining into a 5 gal bucket, but I added a spigot to the bucket so I can either run it to a basement floor drain or collect the water.
You have to be a little careful adding stuff through to top cap. I poured a bunch of water in there and most of it went out the condenser! A funnel might help.

 

[bobo1898]

Congrats @stevebonny ! Looks great!