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Steep/Whirlpool
- Thread starter Rfrey
- Start date
K
KernelCrush
You sure 2.2 is installed correctly? If you go to Help About Beersmith it will tell you your version number. Steep/Whirlpool should be at the bottom of the Use list. When I installed the update it failed a couple times until I dropped it in Updates under the Beersmith folder.
Hopefully someone can help me understand the new Steep/Whirlpool function. I took my IPA recipe in beersmith which currently shows 77 ibu's and checked the Steep/Whirlpool option on the whirlpool hop addition I add at flame out and set the whirlpool time to 20min. It proceeded to change the ibu's to 104. I've made this beer a number of times and there's no way it's 104 ibu. I've always wondered what additional ibu's are added from the whirlpool but from 77ibu to 104ibu is a huge addition. Anyone feel this is correct or does beersmith go a little too far adjusting?
It also depends on how hot you steep. The whirlpool calculation is based on 90C, but if you go even a bit below that the utilization goes down pretty dramatically. Are you really steeping at 90C for 20 minutes?
Brad
Brad
Brad,
I whirlpool at flame out for 20-30 min. then let sit 20-30 min.
I just saw another post on the same issue with a major conversation going on about the same issue.
Besides the IBU increase to the IPA I previously mentioned(77ibu to 104ibu post whirlpool), I also have black IPA with a huge addition to a 30-min. whirlpool and it took my original ibu's of 80 to a stagering 151 ibu's. There is no way this beer is even over 100-ibu's.
It also caught my eye in the other post that there's no consideration taken on the increase of ibu's in the whirlpool from late addition hops. So, who knows what we are actually ending up with in IBU's.
I whirlpool at flame out for 20-30 min. then let sit 20-30 min.
I just saw another post on the same issue with a major conversation going on about the same issue.
Besides the IBU increase to the IPA I previously mentioned(77ibu to 104ibu post whirlpool), I also have black IPA with a huge addition to a 30-min. whirlpool and it took my original ibu's of 80 to a stagering 151 ibu's. There is no way this beer is even over 100-ibu's.
It also caught my eye in the other post that there's no consideration taken on the increase of ibu's in the whirlpool from late addition hops. So, who knows what we are actually ending up with in IBU's.
brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
Hop calculations have never been much more than an estimate. Utilization percentages can be manipulated to get closer to actual lab tested levels, but that's about it. In otherwords, it's a ballpark.
Hop isomerization begins to slope off above 60 IBU and with all other things being constant, tops out at about 100. Some factors can increase that by 5% or so, but again, it's a ballpark. Further, most calculations are about kettle levels, not finished, packaged beer levels. Again, manipulating your utilization levels to match where you measure and what numbers you get are important variables for a brewer to consider.
You're 100% correct that your beer doesn't hold that 151 IBUs. But the beer flavor would be changed if you omitted those hops, right? That's a "magic" quality to modern high hop and burst hop rates: the increased flavor and aromatic contributions. The partial isomers are often transformed during fermentation by yeast enzymes.
There is also a major difference in bitterness perception between humulone and cohumulone texture. Cohumulone has a "coarse" or resinous, lasting texture and isomerizes much more easily than Humulone, which has a smoother, short/sharp texture.
The ASBC (American Society of Brewing Chemists) is slowly wrapping its' head around extended heat exposure and increased aroma hopping rates. Thus far, the major research is about the effect of hop tannins, more than alpha acids and aromatic oils.
Brad's decision is a compromise between the major increase in hop extraction efficiency at 95C and the dropoff to <80C where extraction falls quickly towards insignificance. Other than that, there are no reliable models to go by.
Hop isomerization begins to slope off above 60 IBU and with all other things being constant, tops out at about 100. Some factors can increase that by 5% or so, but again, it's a ballpark. Further, most calculations are about kettle levels, not finished, packaged beer levels. Again, manipulating your utilization levels to match where you measure and what numbers you get are important variables for a brewer to consider.
You're 100% correct that your beer doesn't hold that 151 IBUs. But the beer flavor would be changed if you omitted those hops, right? That's a "magic" quality to modern high hop and burst hop rates: the increased flavor and aromatic contributions. The partial isomers are often transformed during fermentation by yeast enzymes.
There is also a major difference in bitterness perception between humulone and cohumulone texture. Cohumulone has a "coarse" or resinous, lasting texture and isomerizes much more easily than Humulone, which has a smoother, short/sharp texture.
The ASBC (American Society of Brewing Chemists) is slowly wrapping its' head around extended heat exposure and increased aroma hopping rates. Thus far, the major research is about the effect of hop tannins, more than alpha acids and aromatic oils.
Brad's decision is a compromise between the major increase in hop extraction efficiency at 95C and the dropoff to <80C where extraction falls quickly towards insignificance. Other than that, there are no reliable models to go by.
I just 'arbitrarily' changed the new steep whirlpool factor (Options: Bitterness) from default .5 to .25 because I was clearly getting to much IBU from my 20 minute hop stand (while going from 140F to 80F). Can anyone point me to the correct math so I can adhere to Brads logic? Thanks.
panagiotis
Apprentice
And was just wondering about the risk of the whirlpool option making my beers too bitter. If i understood correct what is said above, the risk is quite the opposite (depending on specific hops, temperature loss).