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wow this efficiencies thing is hard.

itsratso

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it seems the learning curve here is really steep.  i have read about a million threads about this (from noobs like me to more advanced brewers) trying to figure out how to set up efficiencies so that it all works. i have been bombarding this place with questions and hope i am not wearing out my welcome as the same handful of really nice and helpful people have been answering me, so let me try for the last time. i am starting my first all grain brew tomorrow. i want to get down to just the bare nuts and bolts here,  so this is what (i think) i have learned on how to set up my efficiencies - i just need to know if i am on target here.

1. i have set up my brewhouse efficiency as stated in the sticky by pat "BeerSmith2 'Equipment Profile' set-up for new all-grainers". this is just an estimate for now, so i leave it alone for at least 5 brews. mine is at 66%.
2. i have set my trub loss to 0 and increased my batch size to compensate as mentioned in many threads around here to simplify the process. is this correct? if it matters, my trub loss is easy to calculate and always the same (i have a spigot on my kettle and just drain off the beer from the trub - whatever remains is my trub which is always obviously a set amount).
3. i will collect the exact amount of wort that BS says in the "estimated pre-boil volume". by collecting that exact amount i take the volume part out of the equation. i also record this amount in the "measured pre-boil volume".
4. i take a gravity reading pre-boil and record it in the "measured pre-boil gravity" spot.
5. i compare the "estimated pre-boil gravity" and the "measured pre-boil gravity" readings. i want them to match. i adjust the "total efficiency" reading on the design page until the two readings match. this "total efficiency" gives me my efficiency for this recipe. i repeat this at least 5 times to get an average of my efficiency over 5 beers. i can than enter this efficiency into my master brewhouse efficiency in my equipment profile.
6. i get drunk because i am so damn happy i finally figured this &%^$ thing out.

someone please tell me if this is right? if not explain to me (like you would to a five year old please) how to fix it. thanx in advance.
 
It is obvious you've put a lot of thought into this process and have been juggling many variables in an effort to grasp that which normally takes months or years to grasp (light bulbs are still coming on for me and I've been at it just over a year now - all-grain for the last 8 months). You're in the right place and on the right track. I'll try and briefly address each item.

1. Personally I think 66% is a low starting number. Give yourself the benefit of the doubt and start higher. I started at the default of 72%, but even 70% would work fine.
2. Correct.
3. You can always hit your pre-boil volume by closing the valve. When you are at your volume, shut it down.
4. Always a good idea.
5. I don't touch the "Total Efficiency" until I routinely come up higher on my OG into the fermenter. I only moved it up when my process started getting better. For the first few batches, leave it at 70 (or wherever you decide to pin it).
6. Your call.
7. (I added this one myself!) TAKE COPIOUS NOTES ON EVERY STEP OF THE PROCESS! Trust me on this.

Good luck today - let us know how it went!

<EDIT> - After going back over my past brews, my initial Total Efficiency was NOT 72 as I had stated above; rather it was 70, and it moved quickly down to 68 for a few brews until I started hitting my gravity targets spot on while getting my volumes "close enough". It soon moved back to 70 where it stayed for a while, then recently bumped up to 73 where it is now after dialing-in my new system. So in retrospect; 66 may not be all that bad a starting point until your confidence builds. See what I mean? Take Copious Notes!
 
Looks like you are on the right track. A few things I always found to be important to remember:
1. Relax, it's a hobby.
2. Sanitize. Very important.
3. Measure volumes, don't guess.
4. BeerSmith is only a guide. If your measured numbers don't match, don't worry. It will be OK.
5. I've seen people make great beer on their first try. I've seen people have a total disaster on their 100th brew. Relax.
6. Relax, it's a hobby.

We are supposed to be doing this for fun.

Ed
 
Efficiencies are not particularly hard but you don't have an efficiency until you have an efficiency  ;)  Meaning, you need to brew the same beer a few times to have meaningful values to put in the boxes.  That is where brewing an established recipe is handy.  You start with general knowledge how it should be and by brewing it a few times, you establish how your process, equipment and ingredients affect the potential efficiencies by observing several target measurements along the way.

Instrumentation and documentation are key.  For me, this meant I take copious amount of notes along the way.  I took gravity measurements in every step and several times along the way.  After 4 or 5 brews, I pretty well understood how each component in my system and process affected the efficiency as well as the time it takes to accomplish it.  My goal has been to be able to product predictable results and find ways to save some time on brew day. 

Now, I hardly take measurements at all.  I don't fret efficiencies and have a pretty relaxed brew day. 
 
itsratso said:
1. i have set up my brewhouse efficiency as stated in the sticky by pat "BeerSmith2 'Equipment Profile' set-up for new all-grainers". this is just an estimate for now, so i leave it alone for at least 5 brews. mine is at 66%.

Since it is your very first AG batch, I'd do 60 or 65%.  You can always add water when you insert your chiller if you are wildly high.  And if you do miss it wildly, I'd adjust it on the next batch, unless something major happened that you know you'd not repeat on purpose.  The average of five batches may not be the closest estimate of what you're planning for batch six.  The goal is to get tighter and tighter to your repeatable process with each batch.  You may be a Jedi Brewer by batch six, and averaging the first five attempts will just mix in some Dark Force again.


itsratso said:
2. i have set my trub loss to 0 and increased my batch size to compensate as mentioned in many threads around here to simplify the process. is this correct? if it matters, my trub loss is easy to calculate and always the same (i have a spigot on my kettle and just drain off the beer from the trub - whatever remains is my trub which is always obviously a set amount).

If you actually do have a dead loss in either the MLT or boiler, I'd enter it.  It's not accounting for known (or should be known) losses that cause shortages.  For ex, the rounded bottom of my keggle retains a gallon of gunk post-boil; if I didn't account for that, every batch would be a gallon short. 
 
thanx guys, this gets me A LOT closer. btw i'm not woody allen nervously obsessing this as much as i am just trying to figure out ahead of time how to do this so that it hopefully runs smoother. i could really care less if all my numbers are horrible and i am brewing the world's greatest beer. however, common sense also tells me that a "screw the numbers" approach would probably not give you the best end product in the world  ;D

so phil, regarding #5, i am not going to touch anything until i see that i am consistently coming up off. but i thought that the idea was to try to "fine tune" your system by matching the est. preboil gravity with your real numbers using the total efficiency. you seem to be saying to use the OG instead of preboil to fine tune (i would imagine by doing the same process, comparing beersmith's estimate with your actual OG ). is this just personal preference, or do i have it wrong? when doing it with the preboil, you can see the results of fiddling with the total eff number by watching the preboil and measured grav numbers change until they match. with your method i would assume, you just wait until your next beer and see if your OG is closer to dial it in? yes? maybe?  :eek:
 
itsratso said:
so phil, regarding #5, i am not going to touch anything until i see that i am consistently coming up off. but i thought that the idea was to try to "fine tune" your system by matching the est. preboil gravity with your real numbers using the total efficiency.

Malt's advice is solid - start lower and let it be what it will be, then make your adjustments accordingly (I tend to bite off more than I can chew with these things...)

Pre-boil gravity is a function of your "extract efficiency" (or %EE) during the mash and hitting your volume target. The idea is to get the right volume at the right gravity - don't sweat this detail too much the first few batches - it'll come around as you dial-in your system and methods.

There are work-arounds for missing the pre-boil gravity target - SG too high; add water and accept the fact you're gonna get slightly more in the fermenter or settle for a slightly bigger (stronger) beer (rarely a bad thing) - too low; boil longer to hit OG and know there will be slightly less going into the fermenter, or settle for a slightly smaller (weaker) beer this time and correct for next time - no worries.

itsratso said:
you seem to be saying to use the OG instead of preboil to fine tune (i would imagine by doing the same process, comparing beersmith's estimate with your actual OG ). is this just personal preference, or do i have it wrong?

Because I'm still relatively new at this, I use the pre-boil SG mainly to determine my %EE, and because I know my boil-off rate (I get a pretty consistent 1.2 Gallons per hour), I use the OG going into the fermenter as my guide to total efficiency. I guess it is a personal preference thing.

The difference between your pre-boil SG and OG numbers will vary based on your rate of boil-off, and this is yet another thing to dial-in as you brew more batches. There are general guidelines for rate of boil-off and it varies depending on how hard you boil and your kettle dimensions. BS provides some numbers as examples but it is impossible to know exactly how a given system performs so their suggested pre-boil SG and OG numbers are based on average systems and will need to be changed based on what you see as you brew.
 
philm63 said:
Because I'm still relatively new at this, I use the pre-boil SG mainly to determine my %EE,


Another modest Jedi Brewer.  That's the crux of it......the Pre-Boil SG is THE statistic to determine if you extracted (today) what your system can repeatedly extract. 

If you hit that SG, at the proper volume, you win.  The rest is boiling, and you can adapt to miscues on the fly as Phil suggested. 
 
wtf, i actually think i got it???

thanx guys. i mean it. as long as phil brought up boil off, let me throw this at you. i will have to start brewing outside as i have bought a burner that runs on propane and would rather not gas myself. i live in chicago so the weather, humidity, etc.  changes at best every 5 minutes here. so boil off will always be a best guess scenario (i guess it's always a best guess scenario with everybody). but obviously close enough is good enough because people have found a number that works with them. so if you are just going with close enough/best guess anyways, wouldn't it make sense just to take a reasonable number for your system (i.e. from a boil off calculator) and just lock in that number, bypassing another changing variable?
 
Your bringing to many variables into the boil rate question. The burners pump out a gross quantity of BTU's, it doesn't matter if it is Spring, Summer, Winter, Fall, sunny, or rainy. The number one concern is wind. Wind can wreck havoc on your brew day. I'd rather brew under a tarp on a rainy day than on a sunny, windy day. Boil off is quite consistent. Do you want to know your boil off? It's simple: Start with 4 measured gallons of water in your boil kettle, bring to a rolling boil, set your timer for 1 hour. Shut it off, let cool, measure remaining volume. NOW you know what your hourly boil off is with your rolling boil. Enjoy! 
 
The number one concern is wind. Wind can wreck havoc on your brew day.

That was my first thought.  You adjust the heat and the wind stops.  It's boiling over.  You adjust the heat and the wind starts.  It's not boiling.

If you're boiling outdoors you need something to shield the flames from the wind or you're going to have an unfun day.
 
I built a wind shield for my burner from plywood scraps. Three sides, works great. I thought about using the restaurant 4-burner on days we are closed, but I like to have a few beers while brewing and that would mean finding a way home.

Ed
 
Maine Homebrewer said:
The number one concern is wind. Wind can wreck havoc on your brew day.

That was my first thought.  You adjust the heat and the wind stops.  It's boiling over.  You adjust the heat and the wind starts.  It's not boiling.

If you're boiling outdoors you need something to shield the flames from the wind or you're going to have an unfun day.

This is a very good reason to get a large boil pot! 

Also, I hit my "wanting to boil over" wort with a few squirts of cold water from a spray gun to keep it from boiling over.  Works like a charm.  Does it add water to my wort?  Yes.  Is it a significant amount?  No.  I only need to do this until the hot break or maybe after a hop addition.  I make 5 gallon batches in a 15 gallon boil pot, because I want to just turn the burner on and let her rip.  My boil off rate is 1.25 gallons per hour.

I brewed outdoors on a really windy day at the Vancouver Brew Fest, as the demonstration brewer for our home brew club.  I hit all my volumes right on the nose.  I usually brew in the garage at home where it's out of the wind.  So, with a large enough boil pot, so that you don't have to turn the burner down, you take the wind out of the equation too.

To summarize, the secrets are:
  • Do what RiverBrewer suggested and boil 4 gallons for an hour and learn your boil off rate
  • Get a really big boil pot, so that you don't have to turn the burner down to keep it from boiling over
  • On those occasions when the big pot still wants to boil over, hit it with the occasional spray of cold water
 
thanx guys, some very good suggestions. but there still will be variables (for instance, when do you start counting on your 60 minute boil? my interpretation of a good rolling boil may be very different than yours. i doubt we would both start the clock at the same time). yet the variables don't seem to matter much toward the end result, seeing as how i doubt you have a boil off rate for when it's windy, a boil off rate for when it's raining, etc. i think that close enough is good enough in this case. i think i will go with the calculator rate and also measure my actual boil off for a few batches just to compare. in the end, it doesn't seem like it's something that you need to sweat a lot.
 
http://blueribbonbrews.com/photos/equipment/

The 8th photo here shows a simple and cheap windscreen I made.  I did it for windy days, but use it every time for that consistency that people cited.  With practice, you will eventually be able to eye-ball and recognize the rolling boil on top and equate that to a consistent boil-off rate. 


Where in Chicago?  Long ago, I lived a few blocks east of Clark and Diversey........Go Cubs!
 
you lived in chicago? and you were a CUBS fan?  8)

i actually bought a house a few years ago in beautiful downtown berwyn  ;D

(BERR-WYNN?!!??)
 
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