Author Topic: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2  (Read 38798 times)

Offline WingedWheel329

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2014, 05:22:26 PM »
One other question, my measured mash efficiency came in much lower than the estimated mash efficiency. Should I even bother trying to dial in my brewhouse efficiency until I corrected the deadspace issue with the next
 batch?

Offline brewfun

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 03:06:48 AM »
Your mash efficiency is calculated based on what goes into the kettle. On the fermentation tab, you have a field called "Measured Efficiency." This is your actual brewhouse efficiency as measured in the fermenter, based on volume, gravity and all losses heading to the fermenter.

If you update your Brewhouse Efficiency in the equipment profile with the Actual Efficiency number, the estimates should line up with your measurements. This is how you train BeerSmith to understand your system and make accurate predictions for it.

Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline WingedWheel329

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 08:10:11 PM »
Your mash efficiency is calculated based on what goes into the kettle. On the fermentation tab, you have a field called "Measured Efficiency." This is your actual brewhouse efficiency as measured in the fermenter, based on volume, gravity and all losses heading to the fermenter.

If you update your Brewhouse Efficiency in the equipment profile with the Actual Efficiency number, the estimates should line up with your measurements. This is how you train BeerSmith to understand your system and make accurate predictions for it.
Right, but what went into the kettle was way out of whack because my mash tun deadspace was way off. I was around 30 points low and a gallon over estimated volume going into the kettle. So my question is, do I fix my mash tun deadspace (which will presumably fix my pre-boil volume issues) prior to attempting to fix my efficiency?

Offline brewfun

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 10:34:38 PM »
So my question is, do I fix my mash tun deadspace

Yes.

Scott already gave that advice to solve the volume issue, though. I wanted to help you with the next step because the low gravity might not be solely related to excess volume.

Oversparging is certainly a contributing factor. It's just that a 30 point difference on just 3/4 of a gallon oversparge sounds like a lot to me. The fact that you increased the volume gap from your post boil target hints at multiple issues, too.

I threw that extra volume at a 1.060 beer and the gravity only dropped 7-9 points (pre/post boil). I had to get to a barleywine before the gravity drop reached 25 points with your excess volume.

The easiest explanation is that your brewhouse efficiency is set too high and your boil off is set too low.

I'll otherwise assume that you accurately measured any kettle to fermenter losses and entered that in the equipment profile. Outside of that, there could be more factors like grain crush, mash pH.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 10:44:43 PM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 06:51:33 PM »
I have about 40 brews complete in BS and struggle to get over 70%. Tried single and double batch sparge, I have my LHBS crush near brew in the bag levels which looks good and when I adjust my PH down per EZBrewing Excel sheet my mash eff drops to 60%

My pre boil numbers are always 10-12 points low no matter what I do

I have gotten to the point where if my volumes are right, and the beer tastes good to me then the rest is of no concern

Another semi frustrated BS user
Rick

Offline WingedWheel329

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2014, 02:31:58 PM »
So my question is, do I fix my mash tun deadspace

Yes.

Scott already gave that advice to solve the volume issue, though. I wanted to help you with the next step because the low gravity might not be solely related to excess volume.

Oversparging is certainly a contributing factor. It's just that a 30 point difference on just 3/4 of a gallon oversparge sounds like a lot to me. The fact that you increased the volume gap from your post boil target hints at multiple issues, too.

I threw that extra volume at a 1.060 beer and the gravity only dropped 7-9 points (pre/post boil). I had to get to a barleywine before the gravity drop reached 25 points with your excess volume.

The easiest explanation is that your brewhouse efficiency is set too high and your boil off is set too low.

I'll otherwise assume that you accurately measured any kettle to fermenter losses and entered that in the equipment profile. Outside of that, there could be more factors like grain crush, mash pH.

I see. Well, I'm sure you're right that it's an efficiency number issue. I just didn't want to adjust too many things at once. Then I'd never be able to know what fixed it. Sounds like I need to prepare for my next few batches to come in low then,  >:(

Offline ArrogantBastardAle

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2014, 12:09:04 AM »
Someone posted a darn good question on my video, and I don't have the answer for it:

"When you were adjusting your brewhouse efficiency to dial in your mash efficiency number, how come you didn't just go to the fermentation tab and use the "measured efficiency" number?"

After some testing, I realized that these two numbers often don't match.  After adjusting the "Brewhouse Efficiency" in the Equipment Profile so that the Est Mash Eff and Measured Mash Eff on the Mash tab match, how come the "Brewhouse Efficiency" in the Equipment Profile does not match the "Brewhouse Measured Efficiency" on the Fermentation tab (the same as the "Measured Efficiency" on the bottom right of the Design tab)?   The tooltips for both read to be the same thing: the efficiency based on the gravity and volume going into the fermenter (unless I am misunderstanding the tooltips), otherwise known as "brewhouse efficiency" in BeerSmith.  What is the difference between the two values, and which is the true "brewhouse efficiency"?

Are we using BeerSmith correctly using the OP's methodology? 
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 12:34:06 AM by ArrogantBastardAle »

Offline brewfun

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2014, 08:30:08 AM »
Someone posted a darn good question on my video, and I don't have the answer for it:

"When you were adjusting your brewhouse efficiency to dial in your mash efficiency number, how come you didn't just go to the fermentation tab and use the "measured efficiency" number?"

Guilty.... I asked that question.... :D

Quote
After some testing, I realized that these two numbers often don't match. <snip>  What is the difference between the two values, and which is the true "brewhouse efficiency"?

Are we using BeerSmith correctly using the OP's methodology?

There is a slight error with how BeerSmith calculates expansion from heat into the gravity number. It's treated as actual water which dilutes the gravity. The error is small, but it creeps in because it's compounded by the brewer's measurements, too.

To sum it up; when you match the Brewhouse Efficiency, your post chill OG and volume predictions should match your actual results. The Mash efficiency will be off because both the brewer and BeerSmith are using the expanded volume as real water.

For the brewer, the measured sugar is spread across more water, which improves the mash efficiency number.

For BeerSmith, it works backwards from the predicted OG, so less sugar is going into the same volume of water, which lowers mash efficiency.

It seems that the difference between the two methods is the error.

If you match mash efficiency, Brewhouse efficiency becomes the error and that shows up in the predicted OG of the wort vs. what the brewer measures (usually lower than the prediction).

OG (as Specific Gravity) Points x Fermenter volume (gallons) / Sum of Grist Potential = Brewhouse Efficiency

I use the average of the actual brewhouse efficiency numbers I get across my beers. Heavily hopped IPA and DIPA have their own equipment profile to account for the higher loss of yield, thus lower brewhouse efficiency.

Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline ArrogantBastardAle

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2014, 08:50:35 PM »
Someone posted a darn good question on my video, and I don't have the answer for it:

"When you were adjusting your brewhouse efficiency to dial in your mash efficiency number, how come you didn't just go to the fermentation tab and use the "measured efficiency" number?"

Guilty.... I asked that question.... :D

Quote
After some testing, I realized that these two numbers often don't match. <snip>  What is the difference between the two values, and which is the true "brewhouse efficiency"?

Are we using BeerSmith correctly using the OP's methodology?

There is a slight error with how BeerSmith calculates expansion from heat into the gravity number. It's treated as actual water which dilutes the gravity. The error is small, but it creeps in because it's compounded by the brewer's measurements, too.

To sum it up; when you match the Brewhouse Efficiency, your post chill OG and volume predictions should match your actual results. The Mash efficiency will be off because both the brewer and BeerSmith are using the expanded volume as real water.

For the brewer, the measured sugar is spread across more water, which improves the mash efficiency number.

For BeerSmith, it works backwards from the predicted OG, so less sugar is going into the same volume of water, which lowers mash efficiency.

It seems that the difference between the two methods is the error.

If you match mash efficiency, Brewhouse efficiency becomes the error and that shows up in the predicted OG of the wort vs. what the brewer measures (usually lower than the prediction).

OG (as Specific Gravity) Points x Fermenter volume (gallons) / Sum of Grist Potential = Brewhouse Efficiency

I use the average of the actual brewhouse efficiency numbers I get across my beers. Heavily hopped IPA and DIPA have their own equipment profile to account for the higher loss of yield, thus lower brewhouse efficiency.

Ha, well thanks for asking the right questions!  So, if I understand you correctly, you use the "Measured Efficiency" on the Fermentation tab as your brewhouse efficiency (well, an average of that number across your recipes) due to a calculation error in the way that BS calculates gravities? 

Can you expand on where in the program's UI this can be reproduced?  Perhaps the estimated Pre-Boil gravity on the Fermentation tab? 

Also, could you please clarify your Brewhouse Efficiency calculation above?  For example:

1.055 X 5 / 1.055 = 5

Did you mean to say: Brewhouse Efficiency = (Measured OG * Actual Volume in Fermenter) / (Potential OG * Target Volume in Fermenter)

Thanks for your insights,
Dan

Offline brewfun

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2014, 11:19:46 PM »
Did you mean to say: Brewhouse Efficiency = (Measured OG * Actual Volume in Fermenter) / (Potential OG * Target Volume in Fermenter)

It was somewhat shorthand.

OG (as Specific Gravity) Points x Fermenter volume (gallons) / Sum of Grist Potential = Brewhouse Efficiency

Means

OG = (Original gravity -1) * 1000 to get specific gravity points
Fermenter Volume = The actual measurement of yield.
Sum of Grist Potential = The potential yield of each grain x weight, all summed together

Example:

OG = 1.065
Fermenter Vol = 5 gallons

Grist:
10# Pale Malt (potential 1.038)
2# Crystal Malt (potential 1.034)

(1-1.065)*1000*5
((1-1.038)*1000*10)+((1-1.034)*1000*2)

65*5
380+68

Brewhouse Efficiency = 0.725 or 72.5%



« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 11:22:32 PM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline dsoleil

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2015, 07:04:51 AM »
I really appreciate this thread.  One more question about the equipment profile as detailed below...


3) When you define a new recipe or update a recipe with the copy of your equipment profile, an independent copy of the Equipment Profile is stored with the recipe.  Changes you make to your equipment profile in the recipe are not forwarded to the master equipment profile stored in BeerSmith.  You will need to make your changes in the Equipment profile (and any recipes previously created) for your changes to be seen.  Changing your profile in a recipe changes it ONLY in that recipe.  For now, leave your “Equipment Profile / Brewhouse Efficiency” at whatever value you like.  Now brew your beer.


So, just to confirm a few details and make sure I have this right from what you said and from playing around with the software. 

1.  If I update the equipment profile in a recipe, it does not change the master equipment profile. 
2.  If I update the master equipment profile, it will not automatically populate existing recipes.
3.  In order to have the new master equipment profile numbers populate my existing recipes, I need to go into each recipe and re-select my master equipment profile.  Then the new numbers show up. 

Thanks for all the help!  This forum has a been very useful.

Dave   

Offline brewfun

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Re: Setup Brewhouse / Mash Efficiencies in BS2
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2015, 01:43:44 PM »
1.  If I update the equipment profile in a recipe, it does not change the master equipment profile. 

Correct.

Homebrewers are constantly changing their equipment. Upgrades, breakage, crazy ideas are all just part of the game. If your recipes constantly updated their profile, then you'd never know what you had going on a few months back when that crazy Banana Split Imperial Session Stout IPA was perfect and could float a cherry.

Quote
2.  If I update the master equipment profile, it will not automatically populate existing recipes.

Again, correct. And you want it this way. Really.

Suppose you brew with a friend and use their hop rocket. That use only exists for that one beer. Therefore, the losses and volumes associated with that equipment would only mess up other recipes, if it were to automatically update your main equipment profile.

However, you do have the option of changing the name of the profile and saving it from the recipe into the equipment profile database by just clicking the disc icon next to the profile name. You can then create new recipes with the equipment as you happen to use it.

Quote
3.  In order to have the new master equipment profile numbers populate my existing recipes, I need to go into each recipe and re-select my master equipment profile.  Then the new numbers show up. 

Yes. It's a bit tedious, but makes more sense because the equipment that you use can change depending on the recipe and methods you want for that individual beer.
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

 

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