Author Topic: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?  (Read 11263 times)

Offline Slurk

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Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« on: June 01, 2012, 05:26:38 PM »
Hi guys,
I have problems with haziness in my lagers. In an article written by John Palmer he is saying:"The typical Protein Rest at 120 - 131F is used to break up proteins which might otherwise cause chill haze and can improve the head retention".
Since I am using this protein rest I was wondering if my mash scheme could cause this problem or perhaps something else.

I am using German Pilsner malt and have the following mash scheme:
- 122F: 30 min
- 128F: 40 min
- 145F: 40 min
- 156F: 30 min
- 162F: 20 min
- 169F: 10 min

Sparg at 171F and a figorous boil for 60 min incl hops at 212F (last 10 minutes incl Irish Moss). Cooling down from 212F to 65F in about 40min.
Any thoughts/ideas/experiences from your side on this haziness problem?

Regards,
Slurk

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Offline tom_hampton

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 05:39:21 PM »
Does the haze go away when the beer warns up?
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Offline MikeinRH

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2012, 10:33:51 PM »
Am I reading this right? a 3-hour mash?

Offline MaltLicker

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2012, 07:46:31 PM »
Sparg at 171F and a figorous boil for 60 min incl hops at 212F (last 10 minutes incl Irish Moss). Cooling down from 212F to 65F in about 40min.

Ditto ?? on the fairly long mash.  I'd suggest trading some of that time to a 90-minute boil, and also try to accelerate the cooling.  A more abrupt cooling should enhance the cold break of proteins and other haze-causing issues. 

After that, you might look at your water, since having sufficient calcium can impact the quality of the hot break of similar clarity-degrading proteins and such. 

A cheap sump-pump can be used to push ice water thru your chiller, speeding the process.   After getting what you can from the tap water, you switch to the pump in a bucket or a cooler, using ice water. 

Offline merfizle

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2012, 07:47:59 PM »
With pilsen, do 90 minute boil...especially for lagers.  Try irish moss and quicly cooling the wort helps in clarity.

Mark
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Offline Slurk

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2012, 02:38:43 PM »
Mark, Maltlicker, MikeinRH and Tom, thanks a lott for your reactions and suggestions.

I will reconsider my mash scheme and try to shorten it somewhat, however I would like to keep the crispy/dry taste in my pilsner. In addition a longer boil from 60 - 90 minutes and a shorter cooling process could help.
Here in Oslo the water has not that high levels of Ca, so there could be something there as well.
I will do the test by warming up my pilsner and see for remaining hazyness. I will report back Tom!

Regards,
Slurk
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Offline tom_hampton

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2012, 06:36:30 PM »
Slurk-

I'd suggest a simple single infusion mash at 150 for 90 minutes.  You don't need ANY of those intermediate rests with a modern pilsner malt.  It should still be plenty dry with a 90 minute mash.

To boost your calcium add a 5grams of CaCl....or.... 2.5g of CaCl and 2.5g CaSO4 ...or...5g of CaSO4.  If you like dry you might try the 5g of CaSO4.

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Offline Slurk

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2012, 02:37:34 PM »
Hi Tom,

Thank you very much for your input. I will give it a try next time.
I warmed up the pilsner yesterday and there was no difference in hazyness, still there.
Regards,
Slurk
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Offline PetenNewburg

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2012, 03:33:17 PM »
  Do you filter?  Bottle condition/ carbonate?  My last few batches were keg carbed after filtering with a 5 micron filter, then bottled.  My clearest beer to date!  My Danish Lager in particular was very cloudy in the primary as it had been a stuck sparge,(only one so far) but now pours almost as clear as a commercial brew with very little sediment in the bottle.  I just bought a case of 1 micron filters so it will be interesting to see the difference.  My next brew I'll use the 1 micron filter and a handful of hops in the filter as well.
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Offline tom_hampton

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2012, 06:33:40 PM »
Hi Tom,

Thank you very much for your input. I will give it a try next time.
I warmed up the pilsner yesterday and there was no difference in hazyness, still there.
Regards,
Slurk

Ok, then it is NOT chill haze.  For this beer, I would suggest using gelatin to clear the beer.  Dosage for a 5 gallon batch is 14 grams...typically half an envelope of unflavored gelatin.

Mix gelatin with 125 ml of sterile water, and allow to hydrate---15 minutes.  Then bring to 170F for 5-10 minutes.  Cool and pour into your beer (bucket, carboy, whatever you age in before bottling.  Mix well, and let it sit for a week.  This should clear the haze.



R.I.P.:Belgian Blonde
On Tap: Apfelwein, Kolsch(v2), Pumpkin Ale, Belgian Specialty 
Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
Next Up: PtE(1.1), Belgian Dubbel?

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Offline Slurk

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 03:05:09 PM »
Thanks Tom,
This batch was already bottled, but if this haziness happens the next time I will give gelatin a try.
I have just ordered malt etc. and will make a lager based on your suggestions tomorrow:
- 150F 90 min mash
- adding 5 gr CaSo4
In addition I was considering a 90 min boil in stead of 60 min.
Do you think a 15 or 20 min Irish Moss boil in stead of 10 min would give an extra effect?

Regards,
Slurk
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Fermenting:
Next brew: Slurk Hav

Offline Slurk

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 03:24:40 PM »
Thanks PetenNewburg,

No, I don't filter my beers (at the moment).
Carbonation factor 2.7, fermentation on the bottle and bottle conditioning for 4 weeks for this Pilsner.

Since I started making Pilsner/German lager style of beers I have considered to use a 5 micron filter, but I've not had that much trouble with haziness with my other beers. A 1 micron filter will in my case filter the yeast away and not allowing me to have the carbonation-fermentation on the bottle.

Could you share your experience with us regarding the additional handful of hops in the filter in your next brew?

Regards,
Slurk
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Ready to drink: Slurk Fjellbrygg, Slurk Foeyn Ale, Slurk Agurk (Cucumber Wit), Slurk Belgian Blonde, Slurk Eng (Raspberry Wit), Slurk Hav (Seaweed Wit)
Aging: Slurk Whirled White Wheat (Wit)
Fermenting:
Next brew: Slurk Hav

Offline Maine Homebrewer

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 06:55:15 PM »
Do you do an iodine test to verify complete conversion?
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Offline tom_hampton

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 08:01:46 PM »
I wondered if you might have already bottled it.  No biggie.  A little haze won't hurt much except cosmetics.

Another thing to look at is the crush of your grains, Slurk.  A very fine crush CAN cause cloudy beer.  If you have a lot of flour in your grist, that might be a factor...either through double crushing, or by setting the gap super tight. 

90 minute boil: ABSOLUTELY!  With that much pilsner malt, its practically required.  The only way you can get away with a 60 minute boil is if you can get the wort down under 140F in less than 2-3 minutes.  Otherwise you WILL have DMS in your beer.

Shorter is better for Irish moss.  5-10 minutes is fine.  More would decrease its effectiveness, as it denatures the carageen (the chemical responsible for its fining power).

I've got nothing against filtering, but you should try the gelatin for the last 5 days of lagering before you bottle the next batch.  You may find that the gelatin does a good enough job all by itself.  Even if you DO decide to filter, the gelatin will have reduced amount of material that the filter has to remove.

Regarding the iodine test:  Not including infusion times, Slurk spent 90 minutes in the sacarification temperature zone.  I'd be willing to bet money that the iodine test would have come back negative before the end if the 40 minutes at 145...not to mention the 30 minutes at 156, and the final 20 minutes at 162. 

On my mashes, my iodine tests come back negative after 15 minutes.  Its so fast that I don't even bother to do the tests anymore.  Its pretty meaningless, in my experience.  The test will come back negative in pure maltodextrine, but the yeast still can't ferment any of it. 

You CAN test for starch even in beer.  So you could do the test on your beer now, to see if there is any starch.  If the test were positive, then odds are good that it is a starch haze. 

Gelatin works very well at removing starch haze.





R.I.P.:Belgian Blonde
On Tap: Apfelwein, Kolsch(v2), Pumpkin Ale, Belgian Specialty 
Aging/Storing: Coffee Porter, Chocolate Porter, Flanders Red, English Barlywine
Fermenting: Maggie's Altbier
Next Up: PtE(1.1), Belgian Dubbel?

Working thru all BCS recipes

Offline Slurk

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Re: Chill haze: due to my mashing scheme?
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2012, 06:04:09 AM »
Thanks Tom (and Main HomeBrewer),

Yes, I use to do an Iodine test.
I will do a test on my bottled pilsner just to see what the result is.
The grain is crushed by the local store and I have always good experience with them. I don't use to have a lot of flour in my grist. However, this morning picking up the malt/hops/yeast etc. at my local store, I bought my own grain mill!

This evening I will brew a lager/pilsner based on your input (90 min mash + 90 min boil + CaSo4 + 10 min Irish Moss). I will keep in mind your suggestion regarding Gelatin.

Regards,
Slurk
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Ready to drink: Slurk Fjellbrygg, Slurk Foeyn Ale, Slurk Agurk (Cucumber Wit), Slurk Belgian Blonde, Slurk Eng (Raspberry Wit), Slurk Hav (Seaweed Wit)
Aging: Slurk Whirled White Wheat (Wit)
Fermenting:
Next brew: Slurk Hav

 

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