Author Topic: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?  (Read 11403 times)

Offline Kealia

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Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« on: February 12, 2012, 08:24:34 PM »
Guys,

I've been an all grain brewer for a while but recently did a Dead Guy Ale clone that was a partial mash/boil and can't get BeerSmith to give me the numbers that I'm looking for. I took the recipe from BYO and had a friend double check them in ProMash and they were spot on so it's obviously something that I'm just not 'getting'. Need help.

I've attached the recipe here, but the main issue I am having is that I can't get the IBUs right. BS shows ~31 and the recipe is for 40. There's a late addition of LME at 15 minutes that I accounted for but maybe I'm just missing something obvious.

Here's the run down:
- Steep grains in 1G water
- Removed and added DME, Munich LME + water to get to 3G volume
- Brought to boil, added Perle
- Added irish moss, yeast nutrient and light LME @ 15
- Added Saaz at flameout

I have a 4G brewpot - maybe it's the settings that go along with that equipment profile that I need to adjust?

Any help would be MUCH appreciated.

Thanks.

Offline Lucas Zimmerman

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2012, 06:07:59 PM »
Have you set up your own equipment profile yet?

Offline jomebrew

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2012, 09:29:34 PM »
Actually, it is funky.  I am using the Tinseth formula. The formula makes a difference. 

The way Beersmith calculates estimated IBU is different than promash.   BS 1.4 is different than BS2.

I found that entering the extract first then adding the hops gave me a different number than entering the hops first then entering the extract.   Notice my efficiency.  That comes from the wierd boil times.

On my system , I get these numbers.   I am pretty sure BYO is using Tinseth

BeerSmith 2 Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: dead guy clone
Brewer: Jomebrew
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Amber Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (30.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 6.55 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.72 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.067 SG
Estimated Color: 10.2 SRM
Gaertz: Estimated IBU: 30.4 IBUs
Rager: Estimated IBU: 48.8 IBUs
Tinseth: Estimated IBU: 36.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 150.3 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1 lbs 4.0 oz          Carastan  (30.0 SRM)                     Grain         1        13.4 %       
2 lbs 4.0 oz          Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM)        Dry Extract   2        24.2 %       
2 lbs 8.0 oz          Munich Liquid Malt (8.0 SRM)             Extract       3        26.9 %       
1.500 oz              Perle [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min           Hop           4        36.5 IBUs     
3 lbs 4.8 oz          Pale Liquid Extract [Boil for 15 min](8. Extract       5        35.5 %       
1.000 oz              Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min             Hop           6        0.0 IBUs       
   


- Joe
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:34:17 PM by jomebrew »

Offline Kealia

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 11:56:35 AM »
I notice that your boil volume was 6.55 G whereas this was a partial boil.

What do you numbers do if you account for that (see my notes for the details)?

 

Offline jomebrew

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 02:04:30 PM »
I meshed the different tests I was doing and posted the batch size before I changed it.   I have to check again.  Phooey!

Offline jomebrew

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 11:02:15 AM »
I can't set mine up for a partial boil.  Everything I do makes the IBU go up which I would expect for my configuration. 

Offline Kealia

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 04:22:15 PM »
Can you perhaps tell me what settings I should be using for a 4G pot?

I don't do a lot of partial mashes/partial boils, but without getting this right I certainly can't use BeerSmith to craft one either.

Come to think of it, I have a lot of leftover extract from the above recipe that I'll need to use so knowing this would be very helpful.

Thanks.

Offline jomebrew

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 09:51:46 AM »
Re-reading your first message.  You did not mash/partial mash.   You steeped the specialty grain as a typical extract batch.  You equipment profile should be set as an extract batch.   

Your equipment is altering the hop extraction %.  The concentration of wort is really high in a 3G boil which reduces the overall extraction % and lowers your IBU.  If you increase to a 4g or 5G boil size you will see the IBU go up. 

So, get a bigger pot or add more hops :)

Offline Kealia

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 11:11:50 AM »
(Sigh)....that's a great recommendation but it's not identifying the root cause.

My apologies for the terminology as I guess I did a partial boil not a partial mash. You are correct that I only steeped the grains. I'm normally an AG brewer but wanted to do this recipe since I really like Dead Guy Ale.

I know that with higher wort gravity hop utilization goes down (which accounts for the late LME addition). I'm trying to figure out why I can't get BeerSmith to show me the right IBU's but my buddy can get ProMash to show him the right IBUs.

There's obviously some settings that I'm just not entering correctly to nail this down and that's what I'm trying to get to the heart of (understand the software).


Offline jomebrew

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 12:11:55 PM »
Is promash set to a 3 gallon boil or 4?   Rager or Tinseth?  I am not sure what BYO used but it is probably Rager.  Rogue simply says 40 IBU which is probably measured and not calculated.  I found the BYO article but they did not list a Hop quantity for Perle.  Just 40 IBUs.   Their formula is IBU = weight of hops in ounces x alpha acid % x utilization % volume of final batch in gallons x 1.34* (This is from their article http://byo.com/component/resource/article/123-alpha-hop-soup-figuring-bitterness-ibus-aaus-and-hbus) but I adapted for this recipe to Oz*AA/FinalVolume*%Conversion (((1.5 * 7.5) / 5) * .25) / .0134 = 42 IBU.

Brad talked a bit about how he has adapted the formulas basedon late edition extract.  Since Tinseth is better suited to full boil estimates, I think Brad is adapting the formula to a partial boil.  Rager is actually better suited to partial boils and is said to give a better estimate.

Just be sure Promash is set to the same formula a Beersmith. Expect Beersmith 2 to be different due to the enhanced algorithms adapted by Brad.

Here is what I did:
Remove the malts (leave the carastan).

Add the DME and set the boil time to 60
Add the Munich and set the boil time to 60
Add the LME and set the late edition boil time to 15

I got 34.5 IBU Tinseth and 49 IBU Rager

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 3.00 gal
Post Boil Volume: 2.71 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal   
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.063 SG
Estimated Color: 10.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 34.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 0.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
1 lbs 4.0 oz          Carastan  (30.0 SRM)                     Grain         1        13.4 %       
2 lbs 4.0 oz          Extra Light Dry Extract [Boil for 60 min Dry Extract   2        24.2 %       
2 lbs 8.0 oz          Munich Liquid Malt [Boil for 60 min](8.0 Extract       3        26.9 %       
1.500 oz              Perle [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min           Hop           4        26.2 IBUs     
3 lbs 4.8 oz          Pale Liquid Extract [Boil for 15 min](8. Extract       5        35.5 %       
1.000 oz              Saaz [4.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min             Hop           6        0.0 IBUs     



Offline playerpiano4

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Re: Setting for partial mash/partial boil?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 12:26:32 AM »
From what I understand, the amount of liquid in the boil affects how well the bitterness from the hops is utilized. The smaller the boil, the less well the bitterness comes through.  Increase the amount of boil or increase the amount of hops until the IBUs come out right.