Author Topic: SRM value is incorrect  (Read 16669 times)

Offline john98026

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 12:02:55 PM »
Well, I am an all-grain brewer so, no aging extracts here.  I have verified the SRM of all of my grains with the profiles shown and the beers turn out much darker than what is shown.  I have used other calculators and the color is much closer to the actual finished product.  I appreciate the work that you do and like this software very much however, it certainly appears there is indeed an error somewhere.  I only wish I were smart enough to find it.

Cheers!

John

Offline BeerSmith

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 02:16:25 PM »
John,
  Have you tried manually running the calculation?  You can verify it manually with the Morey equation (follow the article I provided earlier).  Just multiply pounds of malt times color of malt and add them up to get the MCUs and then apply the Morey equation to get SRM from MCUs.

Brad
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Offline john98026

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 11:17:20 PM »
It is late but I wanted to let you know that I am doing some more research into this.  I am wondering if the volume of water is creating the discrepancy?  I'll keep digging and will let you know what I come up with :)

John

Offline john98026

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2011, 09:18:16 AM »
Brad,

I have crunched some numbers.  Let's assume 5.25 gallon batches for the following examples.  Rather than provide the entire recipe, I will provide the MCUs.  You'll have to trust me that these are correct ;)

Cascadian Dark Ale
MCU 254.0476
Morey SRM 66.58   Beersmith SRM 53.4

American Brown Ale
MCU 97.82
Morey SRM 34.6     Beersmith SRM 25.9

American Pale Ale
MCU 18.86
Morey SRM 11.19   Beersmith SRM 9.0

The Morey values are much closer to the results I get when I brew. 

Does Beersmith use post-boil volumes?  Logically, this would make sense however (and I do not understand why)using post-boil volumes (not batch size) results in SRM values very near to those provided by Beersmith.

Again, I really like the software (and the latest improvements, too)!

John
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 12:21:01 PM by john98026 »

Offline BeerSmith

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2011, 05:37:04 PM »
John,
  Yes - BeerSmith2 uses post-boil volumes as these are the "real" volume the malts are added to.  Obviously the losses after the boil take color with them (such as trub losses).

Brad
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Offline john98026

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2011, 10:34:11 PM »
Obviously the losses after the boil take color with them (such as trub losses).

Brad,

I'm not a PhD, just a lowly aerospace designer however, something about your statement doesn't add up.  It is not 'obvious' to me that losses after the boil take color with them.  Trub can not and does not subtract color from the wort.  Nothing in the processes of Whirlpooling or chilling can remove pigmentation from the wort.  This would require the addition of clear liquid.  The same is true for any post-boil loss in the system. 

Try running a simple experiment.  At the end of the boil, take a sample of wort from the boil kettle and then take another sample at the fermenter.  They will be the same color. 

All I know is that by using Morley (with the final volume of wort), the SRM values are much closer to actual than those produced by Beersmith.  It appears that I'll just have to use these methods to calculate the SRM for my beers.  I'll just include the calculated SRM values in the comments so that I have a record.

I am really trying to help to make this an even better product.

John

Offline BeerSmith

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2011, 06:23:47 AM »
Hi,
  The issue is that X amount of MCU color units goes into Y amount of water to produce the color.  The reason for using the post boil volume is that this is the amount of water the MCUs are dropped into.  The trub loss does take some color units with it (in that sense), though I understand that it does not change the color of the beer.

Brad
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Offline Jean-Luc

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2011, 06:43:36 AM »
Heating method and temperature while boiling can also dramatically change the estimated color...
as other calculations, tehy results in ESTIMATIONS more than effective levels, ingredients quality may vary, their aging also, storage and brewing conditions including the brewer's shape  ::) ...

I would personally never tell that it's the software's fault if my results are different from estimations,
and Beersmith is well designed enough to allow us to adjust it regarding to our actual results.  ;)
Jean-Luc Barranger
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(administrator of the french speaking homebrewers forum)
http://www.brassageamateur.com/forum

Offline john98026

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2011, 01:34:15 PM »
Hi,
  The issue is that X amount of MCU color units goes into Y amount of water to produce the color.  The reason for using the post boil volume is that this is the amount of water the MCUs are dropped into.  The trub loss does take some color units with it (in that sense), though I understand that it does not change the color of the beer.

Brad

Peace.  I don't blame the software for the color and appreciate that it is only an estimate.  I'll keep using Beersmith as it is the best there is!

John

Offline moodybrew

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 01:03:02 PM »
I would just like to add to the discussion here to add that I am finding the predicted SRM significantly lower than the resulting SRM on my first brew using the 2.0 software. I was, however, brewing a red, which is difficult to predict. Past Beersmith programs predicted SRMs with near perfect accuracy for me as well, so I don't know if your formula changed. Additionally, the new in-glass predictor looks cool, but is it equipped with the same color scheme as the previous version? Previous versions seemed to have more nuance. I am just basing this according to my own subjective eyes as well.

Offline BierNut

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2011, 07:49:15 AM »
I would like to bring this topic to light again, because when I enter the same recipe in ver 1.4 and 2.0, the estimated color in 2.0 is less than 1.4. It just seems that the color calc's would be the same in each version.

Offline ScarecrowPA

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2012, 07:19:50 AM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but why not make the SRM formula selectable, and even customizable, with an options panel similar to the one for bitterness calculation?

-JAI

Offline smalenberg

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2013, 12:50:04 PM »
Not sure that there was ever a response to this and I know it is quite old, but I wanted to add my own observation that the estimated SRM is significantly lower than the actual result. I'm currently planning to do an Eastside Dark clone from BYO magazine's recipe and they predict 24 SRM when BeerSmith predicts 13.9 (they use the "Morey equation" - not sure what Brad uses). BeerSmith doesn't even think the beer with be brown. I know maltsters vary, but I checked in with BYO and that doesn't seem to be it. They recalculated it manually and still came up with 18. Something seems off.

I've had an amber turn out red and a red turn out brown when I've adjusted by recipe to try to get predicted color in line with style, so this isn't isolated.

 

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