Author Topic: SRM value is incorrect  (Read 16668 times)

Offline lordotheporto

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SRM value is incorrect
« on: September 16, 2011, 10:54:17 AM »
Am I doing something wrong here?  I put in the ingredients for a 5 gal batch of a dark maple ale, but Beersmith's est. SRM is only 14.4.  Here are my ingredients:

8oz  CaraPils (SRM 2)
8oz  Caravienne (SRM 22)
6lb  Dark LME (SRM 17.5)
12oz  Maple Syrup (SRM 35.0)

So why is Beersmith telling me my SRM is only 14.4??  It doesn't make sense.

Thanks!

Offline merfizle

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2011, 11:16:58 AM »
Not sure.  I get the same value.  Other calculators I tried more than double that SRM.

Mark
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Kegged: Bavarian Weissbier, N. English brown, Roggenbier

Offline lordotheporto

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2011, 12:43:37 PM »
Same here.  And I have made this before and I can assure you the color corresponds to at least double the value Beersmith is giving me.

I'm surprised no one else has noticed this yet.  At least not in any of the searches I have  turned up.

Offline BeerSmith

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2011, 08:49:45 PM »
Hi, 
  Some other calculators use the linear straight line malt color units (MCUs) to measure color - which is wrong.  MCUs are just lbs of malt times the color of the malt divided by the volume in gallons.

  The best equation to use is the Dan Morey equation (though I think John Palmer has a slight variation of Morey's equation) - which is non linear.   As more dark malts are added (particularly for darker beers) the color does not get dark as fast as the MCUs would indicate.

  I have an article on this in detail here:  http://www.beersmith.com/blog/2008/04/29/beer-color-understanding-srm-lovibond-and-ebc/

  BeerSmith uses the Morey equation based on the post boil volume - which is most accurate as losses after the boil (trub/chiller) do take some color with them.

Cheers,
Brad
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 08:51:28 PM by BeerSmith »
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Offline merfizle

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 09:48:55 PM »
Thanks Brad.

I used this calculator which claims to use Morey's forumula.  But, still get a SRM of 33+ with the above grain bill.

Mark
Primary: Lambic base for solera barrel
Kegged: Bavarian Weissbier, N. English brown, Roggenbier

Offline lordotheporto

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2011, 09:08:43 AM »
Thanks for the explanation, Brad.  But as I noted, the beer IS a dark beer.  I have brewed it myself.  It comes out corresponding very much closer to double what Beersmith shows, according to the chart here:  http://www.bjcp.org/colorguide.php

I'm new to this, so I'll take your word for it, and I'll read your article; but something just seems a bit off here...

Offline BeerSmith

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2011, 09:21:41 AM »
Hi,
  You did not provide the volume, but when I ran the Morey equation in the article manually using a spreadsheet against a post boil volume of 5 gallons I came out with a color estimate of 14.9 SRM for your grain bill above.  You can do this by hand pretty easily - calculate the MCUs and then run the Morey equation against it and you will get 14.9.

  The 14.4 number is probably a result of a slightly higher post boil volume (a bit above 5 gallons) for your recipe.

  If you check John Palmer's book you will see that he uses a similar equation (basically the variant of the Morey equation) for color estimates.  I believe Promash also uses the Morey equation for color.  The estimate is pretty well established in the industry.

Brad
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Offline lordotheporto

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2011, 09:43:04 AM »
Thanks, Brad.  I was brewing a 5 gal extract batch (with steeped grains), with a boil volume of about 4 gal.  So what would account for the nearly twice as dark color?  (Midwest even describes this beer as a "Dark" Maple Ale.)  Thanks again.

Offline Rusty Nails

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2011, 05:06:48 PM »
I just ran the grain bill in ProMash, and came up with 14.9. However, depending on someone's definition of 'dark LME', and length of boil of said LME, and storage conditions, your color may, and probably will be, darker.

Offline john98026

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2011, 10:00:02 AM »
I am also finding that my brews are consistently much darker than predicted.  For example, I recently brewed using 10lbs 2-row (2.0 SRM), 9oz Carafa III (525 SRM) and 7oz Crystal 90.  My final volume was 5.25 gallons in the fermenter.  Using BeerSmith, the calculated SRM was 21.5.  Using any of several other methods, the SRM is 28 - 34.  The resulting color is approx to 30 SRM (based on my experience as a BJCP judge). 

All-in-all, this is great software however, I believe that this area may need some fine-tuning.

Thanks!

John

Offline msjulian

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 01:48:40 PM »
I seem to have the same issue. I brewed a munich dunkel and was supposed to end up in the 17 range according to beersmith2. Looks more like 20-22 range. Other recipe builders I have messed with put it in the darker range. Not sure is I have something set wrong or not but it is a little strange.

Offline Runenaldo

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2011, 03:14:11 PM »
I've brewed three 20 liter (5g) batches all witch ended up being around 5-10 points darker than beersmith 2 suggested, so maybe theres a bug somewhere in the program  :)

Offline msjulian

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 12:39:02 PM »
Here is the Dunkel that was 17 SRM in the program. Recipe is used said should be in the 20-22 SRM range.



Here is a Nut Brown that shows as 12 SRM. I may be incorrect in my judgment but it looks more like 15-17.


Offline pcollins

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2011, 12:39:27 PM »
I'll chime in on this one but I wish I could add a solution to the problem or some further insight. All I can really add is that I do find that there is a discrepancy between the colour calculated and the colour once brewed. I'm not brewing "to the numbers" per se, but I do find that I have to completely ignore the colour numbers and estimated appearance provided by BeerSmith.

While the formula provided may be absolutely correct I think there may be a problem when so many people are adding that what is brewed is ending up much darker than what is calculated.

I do find that paler beers generally match the colour calculated and generated but the darker beers are way off.

Aside from that, I DO like the program and will continue to use but it's a shame I have to ignore that one aspect.

Offline BeerSmith

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Re: SRM value is incorrect
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 11:43:47 PM »
Hi,
  I'm not sure what to say - the color estimate is based on the best equation available (Morey/Palmer which are almost identical).  Obviously one other factor is whether the colors going into the recipe grains are accurate, and also the fact that any SRM color measurement has its own limitations (such as being unable to distinguish between brown and red when the two have the same SRM value).

  Finally, you will often have much darker colors than predicted for both extract and partial mash recipes due to the darkening of extracts which happens in production, in storage and also in the boil.  Unfortunately I'm not sure how to estimate these as they depend on storage conditions for the extract, age, and a lot of other factors that most people don't have ready access to.

Brad
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