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Aging, cold storage and the Belgian brew.

Berkyjay

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So I have made 3 passes at brewing a Belgian style Dubbel and each time they have gotten incrementally better.  But they are still light years away from some of my favorite Belgian Dubbels.  Now I'm not expecting to be spot on with a home brew set up, but I feel that I could get much closer than I am now.  My oldest bottled version is about 2 months old, the sedon is about a month in the bottle, and the third is only 2 weeks old.  I am limited to the temperature I can keep them at.  Where I store them it averages around 60-65 during the day at best and dropping down to the mid 50's at night.

Now for my questions.  What does aging actually add to the flavor of a beer?  I have always heard aging brings out complexity, but why does it do this....and how long is long?  Secondly, what exactly does cold storing do to the beer?  Am I losing anything by not being able to get them cold enough in storage?

 
I will presume you're already using some caramunich and maybe Special B for the unique flavors they bring.  You may wish to look at the dark candi syrups such as www.darkcandi.com.  Northern Brewer and others carry them.  Esp. the D2 has some great dark fruit and rummy flavors to it. 

And a lot of the Belgian character is from the yeast during ferm.  Most sources recommend a lower starting temp to avoid fusels and off-esters, but a gradual rise to 70-72 to finish the ferm and to increase the nice esters and phenolics. 

Conditioning time helps to soften any alcohols and to meld the various flavors together.  Cold temps helps clarity by dropping more solids.  Most Belgians do not have to be crystal clear, so IMO conditioning is more for mellowing and melding than clarity.  In general, the higher OG and complexity, the longer the wait.  As soon as you think it tastes good, I would think it OK to bottle/keg.  It will get a few more weeks after that anyway waiting to carbonate. 
 
MaltLicker said:
I will presume you're already using some caramunich and maybe Special B for the unique flavors they bring.  You may wish to look at the dark candi syrups such as www.darkcandi.com.  Northern Brewer and others carry them.  Esp. the D2 has some great dark fruit and rummy flavors to it. 

And a lot of the Belgian character is from the yeast during ferm.  Most sources recommend a lower starting temp to avoid fusels and off-esters, but a gradual rise to 70-72 to finish the ferm and to increase the nice esters and phenolics. 

Conditioning time helps to soften any alcohols and to meld the various flavors together.  Cold temps helps clarity by dropping more solids.  Most Belgians do not have to be crystal clear, so IMO conditioning is more for mellowing and melding than clarity.  In general, the higher OG and complexity, the longer the wait.  As soon as you think it tastes good, I would think it OK to bottle/keg.  It will get a few more weeks after that anyway waiting to carbonate. 

Thanks for the reply and the info.  My brews so far have had a very alcoholic taste to them so a long ageing period is probably appropriate.  As far as the Belgian candi syrup.  I find the stuff to be way too expensive for continual use.  I've taken to making my own candi syrup.  It's not perfect yet, but I am learning each time I make a batch.  It's fairly easy to make but it takes time to learn the intricacies of producing certain flavours and colours.
 
Berkyjay said:
Thanks for the reply and the info.  My brews so far have had a very alcoholic taste to them so a long ageing period is probably appropriate.  As far as the Belgian candi syrup.  I find the stuff to be way too expensive for continual use.  I've taken to making my own candi syrup.  It's not perfect yet, but I am learning each time I make a batch.  It's fairly easy to make but it takes time to learn the intricacies of producing certain flavours and colours.
Belgians are one of my favorites! I have a triple aging right now that I expect to be great, and I enjoyed a 9 month old double last night with a great Steak, YUM! My Tripple will take at least 6 months before it will be drinkable and even longer before it is actually a serious contender at any competitions! Because of the addition of the extra sugars that are added to the fermentation they tend to take a while before they come into their own. For a double, I would put a minimum of at least 3 months aging, longer if you can wait.

Brew as many belgians as you can using different Belgian/Trapist yeasts, take good notes on everything (temps, amounts/types of sugars added, any adjuncts added like raisins or plums). Try using different types of sugars when you make your Belgian Candi. Read books on the style like "Brew like a Monk" by Stan Hieronymus, "Farm House Ales" by Phil Markowski, and "Wild Brews" by Jeff Sparrow. All of which are packed with lots of good information and some good recipes also.

Feel free to PM me, Like I said it's one of my favorite styles to brew

Cheers
Preston
 
UselessBrewing said:
Berkyjay said:
Thanks for the reply and the info.  My brews so far have had a very alcoholic taste to them so a long ageing period is probably appropriate.  As far as the Belgian candi syrup.  I find the stuff to be way too expensive for continual use.  I've taken to making my own candi syrup.  It's not perfect yet, but I am learning each time I make a batch.  It's fairly easy to make but it takes time to learn the intricacies of producing certain flavours and colours.
Belgians are one of my favorites! I have a triple aging right now that I expect to be great, and I enjoyed a 9 month old double last night with a great Steak, YUM! My Tripple will take at least 6 months before it will be drinkable and even longer before it is actually a serious contender at any competitions! Because of the addition of the extra sugars that are added to the fermentation they tend to take a while before they come into their own. For a double, I would put a minimum of at least 3 months aging, longer if you can wait.

Brew as many belgians as you can using different Belgian/Trapist yeasts, take good notes on everything (temps, amounts/types of sugars added, any adjuncts added like raisins or plums). Try using different types of sugars when you make your Belgian Candi. Read books on the style like "Brew like a Monk" by Stan Hieronymus, "Farm House Ales" by Phil Markowski, and "Wild Brews" by Jeff Sparrow. All of which are packed with lots of good information and some good recipes also.

Feel free to PM me, Like I said it's one of my favorite styles to brew

Cheers
Preston

Yes, Belgians have become my passion.  I have somewhat decided to abandon any other style and focus on perfecting the art of making the Trappist style.  The only problem I have with this decision is that I am already running out of room to store my aging bottles.  I'm looking into doing smaller batches from now on.  Something like 3 gallons rather than 5.

I'm hoping that aging will reduce the intense taste of alcohol in my brews.  And I haven't really perfected the art of carbonation with this style yet.  My first batch, a Belgian Strong which is about 3 months old, is still somewhat lightly carbonated with a very strong alcohol bite......it ended up being between 8-9%.  I'm giving it another month before I decide to toss it.  The second batch, which is a dubbel, has great promise.  I re pitched WLP500 which I harvested from my Belgian Strong and it has this great spicy aroma to it.  Unfortunately it suffers from that alcoholic bite as well.....so I'm hoping that aging tames that bite.  Anyway, I could ramble on about my brews but I will reserve that for another day.

Also, thanks for the reading suggestions.  I have already dogeared "How to brew like a monk" to death.  But I haven't gotten to the other two you suggested.  They will be my next purchase  My future brewing plans involve backing away from the high gravity brews and start working on the "Single".  I feel that it would give me a beer with a fast turn around and I can work on developing my taste and aroma.

Cheers!
 
Berkyjay said:
I'm hoping that aging will reduce the intense taste of alcohol in my brews.  ...........with a very strong alcohol bite......it ended up being between 8-9%.  I'm giving it another month before I decide to toss it.  .............it suffers from that alcoholic bite as well.....so I'm hoping that aging tames that bite. 

Karo makes a dark corn syrup that smells similar to D2; 'bout $3 at Walmart.  A half bottle should give you something in a 5 gallon batch.

Back in BCF times (Before Chest Freezer), I made an fuselly hot tripel and a slightly phenolic dubbel.  One glass of that tripel gave me a headache.  I've read that pleasant alcohols mellow over time (think barleywine turning to sherry) but fusels and higher alcohols do not. 

Do you have good control of the ferm temp, esp. during the first 48 to 72 hours?  Assuming you pitch enough yeast and aerate enough, once the O2 is gone the yeast will feast, and with the higher amount of the simpler sugars that they eat first, plus the fact that one typically mashes lower to increase fermentability, Belgian home brews can get hot quickly.  Too-hot ferms can create fusel alcohols. 

If you don't have a chest freezer, try a wet t-shirt on the carboy, set the fermenter in cold water to slow the temperature changes, put a fan on it, or something just to try to keep the temps stable during that critical start-off period. 

 
MaltLicker said:
Berkyjay said:
I'm hoping that aging will reduce the intense taste of alcohol in my brews.  ...........with a very strong alcohol bite......it ended up being between 8-9%.  I'm giving it another month before I decide to toss it.  .............it suffers from that alcoholic bite as well.....so I'm hoping that aging tames that bite. 

Karo makes a dark corn syrup that smells similar to D2; 'bout $3 at Walmart.  A half bottle should give you something in a 5 gallon batch.

Back in BCF times (Before Chest Freezer), I made an fuselly hot tripel and a slightly phenolic dubbel.  One glass of that tripel gave me a headache.   I've read that pleasant alcohols mellow over time (think barleywine turning to sherry) but fusels and higher alcohols do not. 

Do you have good control of the ferm temp, esp. during the first 48 to 72 hours?  Assuming you pitch enough yeast and aerate enough, once the O2 is gone the yeast will feast, and with the higher amount of the simpler sugars that they eat first, plus the fact that one typically mashes lower to increase fermentability, Belgian home brews can get hot quickly.   Too-hot ferms can create fusel alcohols. 

If you don't have a chest freezer, try a wet t-shirt on the carboy, set the fermenter in cold water to slow the temperature changes, put a fan on it, or something just to try to keep the temps stable during that critical start-off period. 

I never thought that I might be producing the wrong type of alcohol.  My fermentation carboy stays in a room that keeps a pretty constant 68-72 degrees.  But beyond that I don't have much control over the fermentation temp.  Do I want to keep the temp lower?  I always thought that the Belgian yeasts like it warmer.  Knowing this though I will make more of an attempt to control my temp during this period. 

As far as my sugar content, this is one of the first areas that I started adjusting.  Since I want to keep with my percentage of sugar that I am using I started mashing at  higher temp....around 155 for 60 min.  With the last batch my gravity ended up around 1.017 as opposed to the 1.008 range of my last dubbel.

Thanks for the advice.

James
 
155 would be fine for a single, but if you want to make a double or tripple you will want to lower the sacrification temp to the low to mid 140's for more fermentable wort. Most of the time I mash at 145 and after an hour it is around 142ish. I also usually decott about a gallon of the thick grist and boil it for about 30 min stirring and adding water to keep it from scorching and loose. That along with a 2 hour boil and if you have room in your kettle.

The biggest change to my beer was from controlling the fermentation temps. As MaltLicker stated, controlling the temp during the first 3-4 days of fermentation will help. At that point I am usually adding my first Sugar addition (about half way through primary fermentation), which makes the fermentation go crazy. Also you will want to roust the yeast to keep it in suspension and which will help it get to its terminal gravity.

If you would like to see some pic's, I made a double for the Aleuminati and posted some pic's here ( http://aleuminati.ning.com/forum/topics/1501346:Topic:16588?id=1501346%3ATopic%3A16588&page=4#comments). This was a fun experiment, where each of us made our own renditions of the brew and the did a beer swap and a live online tasting.

Cheers
Preston
 
UselessBrewing said:
155 would be fine for a single, but if you want to make a double or tripple you will want to lower the sacrification temp to the low to mid 140's for more fermentable wort. Most of the time I mash at 145 and after an hour it is around 142ish. I also usually decott about a gallon of the thick grist and boil it for about 30 min stirring and adding water to keep it from scorching and loose. That along with a 2 hour boil and if you have room in your kettle.

The biggest change to my beer was from controlling the fermentation temps. As MaltLicker stated, controlling the temp during the first 3-4 days of fermentation will help. At that point I am usually adding my first Sugar addition (about half way through primary fermentation), which makes the fermentation go crazy. Also you will want to roust the yeast to keep it in suspension and which will help it get to its terminal gravity.

If you would like to see some pic's, I made a double for the Aleuminati and posted some pic's here ( http://aleuminati.ning.com/forum/topics/1501346:Topic:16588?id=1501346%3ATopic%3A16588&page=4#comments). This was a fun experiment, where each of us made our own renditions of the brew and the did a beer swap and a live online tasting.

Cheers
Preston

Interesting pics.  So you actually do keep your carboy in a tub filled with water.  I wish I could actually go to those lengths.  So what is the reason that you add the sugar during fermentation.  I've been adding it during boil, mainly because that's what I have read to do.  Also, what was in the plastic bag when you added your sugar in?

As for my mash, the reason we mashed at a higher temp is to keep the more fermentable sugars down thus keeping the gravity in control.  I tried a mash at the temps you described and the yeast (WLP500) tore through it giving me that very low final gravity (1.008).  At this point I am more concerned with my fermentation process than I am with the mash.  I feel that this is where I am losing my beer.  As I said in my previous post, my last dubbel ended up around 1.017.  That one I mashed at 155.  I used 2 lbs of candi syrup and I picked a slightly less attenuated yeast (WLP540).  At first taste I appears to be an improvement, but I'm going to give it a few more weeks before I judge.

Honestly though, this is what I love about brewing.  The discovery of the style.  I don't mind so much that I produce bad batches.  I just want to learn with each batch and put that towards the next.  Again, thanks for the advice and the pics.  It helps a ton in my brewing education.

Cheers,

James
 
Berkyjay said:
Interesting pics.  So you actually do keep your carboy in a tub filled with water.  I wish I could actually go to those lengths.  So what is the reason that you add the sugar during fermentation. 
This steps the gravity up in stages so you don't shock the yeast at the mountain they have to climb. I have done it on multiple occasions to one beer with great success.
Also, what was in the plastic bag when you added your sugar in?
That was the homemade Belgian Candi sugar. I make it ahead of time and cover it in power sugar then bag it in separate 1# bags.

Best of luck on the your Belgian adventure!

Cheers
Preston
 
Berkyjay said:
My fermentation carboy stays in a room that keeps a pretty constant 68-72 degrees.  But beyond that I don't have much control over the fermentation temp.  Do I want to keep the temp lower?  I always thought that the Belgian yeasts like it warmer.  Knowing this though I will make more of an attempt to control my temp during this period. 

Esp. during the first 96 hours when yeast are replicating and eating a lot, they generate heat.  The ambient temp in the room may be 70F, but the center of the carboy may be 80F.  Try a fish tank thermometer that adheres to the carboy - $3 Walmart.  That would tell you the surface temp of the carboy at least.  Assume higher in the center. 

The size of the space may matter too, in that a smaller chamber would be easier to control.  Plastic tubs are $7; you could likely find one 3" bigger than your fermenter and use cool water.  Start that cooling bath at 64F and maybe add some ice the first few days?
 
MaltLicker said:
Berkyjay said:
My fermentation carboy stays in a room that keeps a pretty constant 68-72 degrees.  But beyond that I don't have much control over the fermentation temp.  Do I want to keep the temp lower?  I always thought that the Belgian yeasts like it warmer.  Knowing this though I will make more of an attempt to control my temp during this period. 

Esp. during the first 96 hours when yeast are replicating and eating a lot, they generate heat.  The ambient temp in the room may be 70F, but the center of the carboy may be 80F.  Try a fish tank thermometer that adheres to the carboy - $3 Walmart.  That would tell you the surface temp of the carboy at least.  Assume higher in the center. 

The size of the space may matter too, in that a smaller chamber would be easier to control.  Plastic tubs are $7; you could likely find one 3" bigger than your fermenter and use cool water.  Start that cooling bath at 64F and maybe add some ice the first few days?


Yeah, I'm definitely going to pay more attention to my fermentation temp now.  I'm taking a break from brewing until August so that should give me time to develop a better method of controlling the temp.  My first move will be keeping the carboy in my buddies garage where the ambient temp is much cooler.

One other question.  How long do you guys keep the beer in primary fermentation?  I've been told by a brewer at a local brewpub that it is best to remove it from primary as soon as the krausen drops.  The reason is to get it off of the trub as so you don't pick up any off flavors from it.  It also is supposed to get most of the yeast back into suspension an kind of wakes them up.  Your thoughts?
 
Berkyjay said:
One other question.  How long do you guys keep the beer in primary fermentation?  I've been told by a brewer at a local brewpub that it is best to remove it from primary as soon as the krausen drops.  The reason is to get it off of the trub as so you don't pick up any off flavors from it.  It also is supposed to get most of the yeast back into suspension an kind of wakes them up.  Your thoughts?

With fear and trepidation, I point you to "Have you changed your secondary approach..."

Once there, hopefully with beer in hand, you will see the wide variety of opinions on this very subject.  ;)

I think most would agree, however, that "as soon as krausen drops" is too quick.  The yeast are still working and they still have clean up to do after that.  You likely cause more problems by racking that soon than you avoid.  And I think most would agree that off-flavors from trub would take longer than 7-10 days. 
 
MaltLicker said:
Berkyjay said:
One other question.  How long do you guys keep the beer in primary fermentation?  I've been told by a brewer at a local brewpub that it is best to remove it from primary as soon as the krausen drops.  The reason is to get it off of the trub as so you don't pick up any off flavors from it.  It also is supposed to get most of the yeast back into suspension an kind of wakes them up.  Your thoughts?

With fear and trepidation, I point you to "Have you changed your secondary approach..."

Once there, hopefully with beer in hand, you will see the wide variety of opinions on this very subject.   ;)

I think most would agree, however, that "as soon as krausen drops" is too quick.  The yeast are still working and they still have clean up to do after that.  You likely cause more problems by racking that soon than you avoid.  And I think most would agree that off-flavors from trub would take longer than 7-10 days. 


Well, due to the fact that I brew at a friends place, I don't have 24hour contact with my carboys.  So I usually end up leaving my batch in the primary for 5-7 days normally.  I'm actually pretty pleased with my primary/secondary routine.  I've even gone so far as to go to tertiary fermentation, with good success, to get some clarity and to wake the yeast back up if my gravity isn't where I want it.
 
MaltLicker said:
With fear and trepidation, I point you to "Have you changed your secondary approach..."
I did not see the link for this so here it is.
http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=2473.0

I would say that a minimum of 2 weeks in the primary. However, When adding sugars to the primary like mentioned above for a Double or Tripple, you should add another 7-10 days after the addition. Mainly because you are waking up the yeast by adding more fermentables. This is dependent on the strain of yeast, the OG and FG. I have had the occasion where I have had to add yeast because of a stalled fermentation.

Cheers
Preston
 
Hi Fellas,

I did a tasting of 3 of my Belgians tonight and I wanted to report.  My first Belgian ever.....a Dubbel Strong, turned out not so good.  This is the one I feel that suffered the most from the high fusel alcohol.  Very solvent tasting all around.  I will most likely end up ditching this.  My Dubbel #1 turned is coming along nicely.  Moderately complex flavor with the alcohol taste starting to recede.  There is a nice spicy nose to it with a hint of that spiciness on the tongue.  The only problem is that the carbonation is fairly low even after a month in the bottle.  I'm hoping another month or so will give it a better turn out.  Dubbel #2 has great promise.  The carbonation after 3 weeks in the bottle is excellent.  The flavor is moderately complex with a strong caramel taste to it.  The alcohol is still quite strong but I'm hoping that over time this will mellow.  All in all these two Dubbels are coming along better than I expected.  Granted, my expectations are somewhat low so I still wouldn't compare them to any Belgian Abbey....yet.  I'm hoping with your suggestions to improve upon what I have built so far.

Cheers,

James
 
That's great to hear, Please keep reporting back on your progress and the Belgian's you brew, Along with recipes, yeaset used, etc. I would enjoy watching the progression, and may even be willing to do a beer swap with you, if your interested.

Cheers
Preston
 
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