Author Topic: Water Profile Information Improvement  (Read 593 times)

Offline mr_beer

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Water Profile Information Improvement
« on: October 15, 2020, 09:27:13 AM »
Recently I looked more closely at the available BS3 water profiles ? many have geographic location names but many also seem to refer to the beer style in fairly generic terms. 

As a product improvement suggestion, it would be helpful if the generic profile names (e.g. Light and Hoppy or Brown Full) included some more information in the notes area ? possibly BJCP style or some other info to help the novice to select an appropriate profile.

Offline Kevin58

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2020, 05:04:41 PM »
That's pretty much how water targets are named. There are so many BJCP styles and those styles are altered, removed or added to on a regular basis so it would be impractical to have a water profile for each one.

As a rule of thumb I ignore the ones associated with a geographic location. Even brewers IN those locations are treating their local water so you may be (attempting) to match Edinburgh water but the brewers in Edinburgh are treating that water so you are not matching the beer that they are making.

Using descriptions like Light Hoppy or Brown Full etc. are, to me anyway, very intuitive and cover just about everything you would want to make.
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Offline mr_beer

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2020, 06:41:21 AM »
Obviously I disagree.  My view, as often expressed in my posts, is that experts know almost everything about a topic but novice users need information to make the product more useful.  Software programs provide that information and knowledge in specialty areas. 

Every question on this forum is an opportunity to improve the product -- better documentation, different UI, etc.  Generally speaking, the easier the product is to use the more users adopt the product and the market grows.

My suggestion was to take the non-geographic profiles and add some data regarding intended use in the notes area.  Not complicated, not intended for every BJCP style but instead to help novice users understand the use and general applicability of the profile. 

The entire effort would probably take no more than three to five staff days.  Would be a great project for an apprentice or user that wants to contribute and has domain specific knowledge to improve this small area of the program. 

Offline Oginme

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2020, 07:13:50 AM »
This is a dangerous area.  While many rely on software to give them information which they wish not to have to calculate manually, relying on a piece of software to tell you HOW to brew something is a very misguided viewpoint.  This is especially true when looking to make something which is intended to give you the "best method" since the definition of "best" will differ greatly from brewer to brewer.  The last thing an unthinking and non-rationalizing piece of software should do is tell us how to brew a style/recipe.  Too many users blindly follow the software without spending the time to customize the settings to reflect their process accurately.  We see this regularly in this forum and in many others.

Nothing replaces the brewer's efforts at learning the how and why of the brewing process in conjunction with their particular system and methods of brewing.  What I may pick for a water profile for a dry stout may be the same, marginally different, or greatly different from what Kevin picks to make his stout.  Both of us will produce an excellent stout which reflects our specific processes, ingredients, and sensory preferences. If the water profiles are different, does that make his profile the best or mine?  My choice in a water profile can also reflect my choice in grains, suppliers, process efficiency, among other variables which may be different from Kevin's.

If you do a search, you will find a set of water profiles from John Palmer for a number of different styles.  You will note that in his spreadsheet of style water profiles that there is a wide range for each of the different ions: Ca, Mg, SO4, Cl. 
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Offline Kevin58

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2020, 08:15:50 AM »
I used this Brewers Friend chart to add water targets in my Beersmith software...

https://www.brewersfriend.com/brewing-water-target-profiles/

Sorry the formatting does not make this one easier to read but here is a collection of targets I found on a homebrew forum. No description or notes on these the way you like but I do believe they are fairly intuitive to figure out which one to use with whatever style of beer you want to make...

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride Carbonate Hardness BicarbonateHCO3 Alkalinity
Ideal Alt 38 0 28 90 45 0 26.8 0 0
Ideal Bitter 90 10 28 240 38 0 70.2 0 0
Ideal Bock 60 0 50 45 75 60 42.9 60 49
Ideal Brown Ale 23 0 50 53 75 0 16.1 0 0
Ideal Burton Pale Ale 111 18 35 337 32 38 89.9 37.82 31
Ideal Dark Lager 83 0 50 53 75 90 58.9 90 74
Ideal Dark Lager 73 13 52 125 80 63 59.8 129.32 106
Ideal Dopplebock 78 0 55 45 85 90 55.4 90 74
Ideal Dortmunder 75 0 53 175 80 0 53.6 0 0
Ideal English Ale 52 10 6.2 65 9.6 63 43.0 129.32 106
Ideal Light Lager 45 0 28 108 45 0 32.1 0 0
Ideal Light Lager 21 5.2 18 21 16 51 18.1 84.18 69
Ideal Maerzen 45 0 35 105 53 0 32.1 0 0
Ideal Medium Lager 74 5.2 10 21 16 111 55.9 225.7 185
Ideal Mild 38 10 35 133 55 0 33.0 0 0
Ideal Mild/Dark Lager 75 12 35 120 100 100 60.6 100 82
Ideal Munich Dark 63 0 10 28 13 60 44.6 60 49
Ideal Pale Ale 125 20 25 363 40 0 101.1 0 0
Ideal Pale Ale 110 18 17 350 50 0 89.2 0 0
Ideal Pale Ale 110 18 17 350 50 57 89.2 57 47
Ideal Pale Ale 126 19 18 281 48 66 101.2 66 54
Ideal Pale Lager 1 0.5 1.05 5 0 0 1.0 0 0
Ideal Pilsner 7 5 2 6 5 15 7.9 15 12
Ideal Porter 65 0 40 60 60 60 46.4 60 49
Ideal Scottish 25 0 16 60 24 0 17.9 0 0
Ideal Stout 50 12 60 46 175 0 42.8 0 0
Ideal Stout (Dry) 90 10 15 73 24 130 70.2 130 107
Ideal Stout (Sweet) 65 0 15 45 24 70 46.4 70 57
Ideal Weizen 23 0 10 53 15 0 16.1 0 0
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Offline mr_beer

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2020, 12:09:05 PM »
GREAT Information Kevin58

It is close to what I was looking for -- thank you.

Does BS3 have a way to export/import this information?


Offline mr_beer

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2020, 03:25:14 PM »
Thanks to all who commented, especially Kevin58.

His information drove me to look around since I hate transcribing information and making mistakes. 

http://fermware.com/beersmith3-bjcp-water-profiles/

Great web site and Mr. Straus had all of the profile information that I had originally asked for. 
And the information was slotted to BJCP styles and annotated with actual references and data from apparent experts.

Unfortunately I had to fiddle around with BeerXML information and then use a specialized text editor to manually fiddle with the water.bsmx file.

I have the background, other users may not.  This improved water profile information should be part of the next release or upgrade.

Mr. Smith should contact this fellow and get permission to include his fine work.  Since Mr. Eric Straus, the owner, gives it away, I assume that Mr. Smith and Mr. Straus can come to some reasonable accommodation.

Now that I have the information, there should be some way to edit the water.bsmx file to change entries, delete errant entries, etc.  Getting a  specialized text editor, understanding BeerXML syntex and groveling in the weeds seems like the wrong approach. 



Offline Oginme

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Re: Water Profile Information Improvement
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2020, 04:44:09 PM »
If you note the information on the web site, he gives the min/max/average median for each ion -- not the ideal/not a target.  There is plenty of information out there on each style and the water profiles which are recommended to produce that style with the flavor representation described in the guidelines, if one only spends some time researching the style they wish to produce. 

Edit: saying average gives the impression that it is based upon actual data.  The correct term is median, since it is the halfway point between the min and max recommended values.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 06:47:14 AM by Oginme »
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