Author Topic: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe  (Read 1137 times)

Offline bougie1st

  • BeerSmith Master Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 64
Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« on: July 01, 2020, 07:00:56 PM »
If this has been asked and answered before, I apologise - could someone direct me to the thread if so?

I want to ask about the water profile and salt additions

Attached is a recipe with salt additions. In it, the water analysis says that it has a S04:Cl of 2.7 - bitter

However, in the first screenshot is a copy of the water profile tool, with a ratio of 1.2

My understanding of this is that while the amount of calcium, etc, shown on the water tab in the recipe is important for acid additions in the mash, it is the overall ratio will be what my tastebuds will be working with.

I just want to confirm that this is based around the total water used (31.92L in the water profile tool, 17.6L for the mash water in the recipe).  That way, I can decide on my total additions based on the water profile tool, then split them based on their effects on the mash/sparge within the recipe

I do want to also ask why these are separate though? I don't understand why all this information cannot just be in the recipe - seems crazy that the recipe has the mash and sparge info only, but not the overall effects.  At least the 'water analysis' in the recipe could say 'mash water analysis' to make this clear

Offline bougie1st

  • BeerSmith Master Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 64
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2020, 07:37:09 PM »
I'm just going to bump this because there is no answer as yet

Wanting to confirm that the water profile tool is what I taste (final outcome) but what is in the recipe is only for the mash?

Also want to ask (Brad) - why are these seperate and not all included in the recipe (ie mash, sparge and total result) because it is confusing as it is?

Offline bougie1st

  • BeerSmith Master Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 64
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 07:31:04 PM »
Thanks for attempting to answer my question, Riverbrewer. I'm sorry that it was confusing - rather than listing all the numbers, I was keeping it in the files, because the experienced users on this forum often prefer it posted that way.  And I was aiming for a shorter post (for a change).  Oh well, hold on tight  ;D

I have actually answered part of the question myself in the meantime.  The answer is yes - the resultant values reflect the volume and if you set them the same, it will give you the same answer.  What I mean is this - if you set the water profile tool with a volume the same as the mash volume, it'll come up with the same as the calculations used in the recipe water tab.  So, if I set the volume as 17.6L in the tool, and add in the same amounts of salts, the calculated final values are the same.

[I noted that there was an error in the screen shot of the profile tool in that, while trying to figure it out, I made adjustments to the baseline profile directly in there, so that would have thrown calculations out]

With regard to some of your other points - I am using BS3.1.05 - the most current version. Also, ignore the Bru'n water profile target/etc that comes up - that a target to make the program calculate estimated salt additions. I am manually adjusting them, so it is a distractor. And when I say split, I am not fixed on any specific ratio - I just mean 'split in any way you see fit'

Now, when I am talking about TASTE, I agree with your statement, but I don't think my point was clear.  What I meant was how the salts 'season' the beer - a high SO4/Cl ratio will tend for a bitter, dry beer, while if the ratio is low, you'll achieve a softer/malty beer (ie like the effects of using a low ratio/high chloride for a NEIPA), all else being equal.

So, if I use the water profile tool, with the total amount of water used (31.92L), then I can see the overall effect of my additions on the seasoning of the final beer via that ratio.

However, what is in the recipe>water tab seems to only give me the effects of the salts on the mash and sparge added separately.  The Adjusted Water Profiles section gives me the values of the salts added to the mash, with a line that summarises the sparge additions (adjusted sparge water profile). 

There doesn't seem to be any indication of the effect those salts will have on the final beer 'seasoning'. 

The reason that I say this is that the values in the water analysis area in the recipe>water tab are different to the values found in the analysis of 'total' water profile line in the water tool.

So, then, why is this different?  I would have thought that all of these profiles are important - the mash values for calculating acid additions and ensuring enough calcium, the sparge (really for interest or completeness, I guess) and the total values for 'seasoning'.  This is what I really want to know.  And if there is a specific reason that Brad chose it this way, I'd like to know for my own understanding, to develop my brewing knowledge, BS3 knowledge or to correct misconceptions that I may have.

Should I not care about the final, total water profile? Is it just the mash that is important? My understanding is that both are important, for different reasons. Or is the effect of the malt and mashing such that the final estimation is too difficult to guess (but then why are we aiming for various SO4/Cl ratios at all, because they are going to be altered by so much through the process that only caring at the beginning doesn't seem like it would carry through enough)

It seems that one way to achieve what I am asking is to use the water tool. If I enter the 17.6L as the base volume, then make the adjustments to my salts, and 'dilute with' the 14.32L of unadjusted base water (which would be the sparge), then I can see all of these values. It just means that I would have to limit my salts to only adding to the mash (which I can't actually see a major disadvantage to) or manually adjusting the fields of the 'dilute with' water to include adjustments if I have made them

Hopefully this longer post was more clear. Sorry if it wasn't

Offline bougie1st

  • BeerSmith Master Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 64
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 11:30:28 PM »
Look - I'm not sure if this is a communication thing, or something else, but your messages seem to have gone from a helpful response to something rather passive-aggressive.

I'm going to assume it is the former (and I accept it may be that I am misinterpreting tone or something in these messages) and explain my terms because I have seen a number of your other posts and noted that they are in a friendly and helpful tone.

Wrt 'seasoning' - I note that you used the quotation marks, as I did. I presume that this means that you noticed they were in the original reference to 'seasoning' in my message and therefore you are aware that this was being used as a non-technical euphemism.  In fact, if Gordon Strong can refer to it as seasoning, then it's good enough for me

(To quote, "Since I use RO water, I don't have to worry about fiddling with it very much, just adding enough calcium for a proper mash and then 'seasoning to taste' for the final beer."  Brewing Better Beer p150)

To split is to break into parts - it can be taken as into half, but can also apply to greater numbers. This includes split into thirds, fourths or whatever number you like (like split the bill at a restaurant?).  As you pointed out (and is in agreeance with my previous questions/comments), this could result in different water profiles depending on how you do it - that is why I was asking the specific question that I was.  I'm trying to understand how the system uses the information when it is put in in different ways (or the salt additions are split differently) and the resultant effect on the final beer.

I don't understand your comment about the munich helles thing.  Seems to not add much.

As I previously said, thanks for attempting to answer my question with your original post.  The second was less useful.  If I am incorrect and I have somehow offended your ego, I apologise. Otherwise I will not be drawn into an internet argument and will only respond to useful comments from this. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:44:58 AM by bougie1st »

Offline BOB357

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
  • Beer is my bucket list!
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2020, 01:36:13 AM »
The water tool, like almost everything else in BeerSmith, can be adjusted by the brewer to fit their system, process and preferences. While there are several approaches on how to incorporate brewing salts, I find using the water tool as it was designed works well for me. On the Design page, once you've entered all of the other ingredients, selected the desired profiles and made any necessary adjustments, click on the Add Water button and make your source water selection. The total amount of water needed will be added to the ingredient list.

Click on the Water tab. You can now either add salts manually or Click on Match a target profile. In the window that opens you'll have the option of entering the levels of ions you want or selecting a water profile. The resulting salt addition recommendations for the mash and sparge will be displayed, and are spilt according to the respective water volumes. You also have the option of holding the sparge additions and adding them to the boil if you prefer. Click OK and the additions will be added to the ingredients list on the design tab.

Now, click on the Mash tab and make any needed pH adjustments, selecting either the MPH 3 model or the BW model. Note, that if you select the MPH 3 model, you'll need to be aware of a known problem and a work around. I have been using this with good results. While I'm not sure, there is some speculation that the BW model is what's used in Bru'n Water.

It can be confusing when we see brewing salts referred to as seasoning. The salt additions and other adjustments made to our source water build it into the water profile we want for a particular beer, so essentially, the brewing water is the true seasoning. However you split the salt additions, they all become part of the big picture.
Bob

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2982
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2020, 06:58:37 AM »
I'm sorry I did not get a chance to comment earllier on this, bougie1st! 

There are a couple of things that don't quite add up in your attachments.  First, your base water is different in your water profile tool as compared to your recipe.  Just following one ion, Calcium, it is at 24 ppm in your recipe, but listed as 69 ppm in your water profile tool.  Next, the ending target composition is different being 150 SO4 and 123 Cl in the water profile tool and in the recipe it is 120 SO4 and 80 Cl.

Lastly, you have selected 'hold sparge salts until boil' which will then not reflect the sparge salt additions in your sparge water and have the salts marked as 'boil' additions. 

Since it does not appear as though you used the 'match target profile' but added the mineral salts manually, I am not sure how you would expect the water profile tool to match your target. When I use the 'match target' in the recipe, I come up with a much different salt additions from what you originally had in the recipe.  As you are not adding any Chloride salts in the recipe, I am not sure why you would expect to match the desired target of 80 ppm with a starting profile of 64 ppm without any Chloride salts being added. 

So to answer your question as best as I can given the information provided, the water adjustment gives you a water profile target to match the water balance of ions to emphasize which flavors you want to stand out.  Please note that this is not the final balance in your beer, as the grains add their own contribution to the ionic balance and yeast will utilize the minerals (particularly Calcium and Magnesium) in their flocculation and settling out of suspension. 

With that understanding, the best we can do as brewers is to use the starting water profile as a tool to drive the sensory impression we want.  To do this, you set up your base water, whichever profile is correct, and use the 'Match to Target Profile' tool within the recipe to give you as close to that ionic balance as you can achieve from your starting profile.  The program will give you the ion content for the mash water and the sparge water based upon the inputs you give it or which are determined by matching the water profile in the recipe.  It does not give you a composite profile within the recipe and you are correct on that aspect.  It defaults that if you use the water profile function in the recipe that your ending balance will be close to that target.

In short, the program will match as close to the target profile for the entire water volume you specify if you use the "match a target profile" within the recipe.  It does not appear from your additions that you used this function to match the profile you want.
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline bougie1st

  • BeerSmith Master Brewer
  • ****
  • Posts: 64
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2020, 06:08:37 PM »
Thanks Bob and Oginme

Thanks, particularly Oginme for going through that.  When I went back later, I did notice that what I had uploaded had been edited (in my playing around with it) and there was therefore a discrepancy in it all. You are correct in that there had been some manual edits - that was me playing to figure out my own problem.

Sorry about that - hard to ask a question properly when it has been self-sabotaged! 

In the end, I have figured out my own answer.  As you and Bob have correctly identified, the match tool will automatically calculate based on the target profile and the water volume.

What I've noticed is that when in the recipe>water tab, it will calculate based on the total volume and divide the subsequent values into mash and sparge/boil.  This seems to make the concentration of ions in the water and sparge the same as long as the 'hold sparge salts until boil' is unchecked. 

You'll get the same values in the water profile tool (total values though, there is no splitting it into mash and sparge in the tool) when the base water is equal to the total volume.  If you set the base water as the mash volume, and then dilute with volume to the sparge volume (which is a foreseeable way to do it if you only adjusted the mash water and then 'diluted' it with sparge water rinsed through the grain), it will calculate different values. It will only adjust the mash/base volume as if that was the whole amount - the totals value will truly reflect a dilution.  I had expected that it would increase the amounts of salt additions to the base water that could then be diluted back to target levels (say you had too much sodium and wanted it diluted, but still wanted to achieve 50 ppm Ca - you'd need to add a greater amount of Ca to the mash water so that it didn't get diluted too far).

I had thought that the SO4:Cl ratio was out between the two (recipe>water tab and water tool). I was correct in that the recipe>water tab ratio reflects only the mash water, not the total, whereas the water tool reflects the total (including dilutions if you choose).  What I have discovered is that the recipe>water tab is correct for the total water as long as it isn't self edited.  In other words, the tool automatically calculates additions to the mash and sparge, makes each (mash and sparge) equal to the target profile and that this means that the total water value when mash and sparge are added together would by definition be equal to the individual parts.

You are also correct, Oginme, in that what I was doing was making self edits and this is the problem.  These edits are generally rounding of numbers to something more easy to measure, and changing the split (maybe putting more in the mash, or holding salts till the boil) and then expecting the program to give me the total profile.  It does not do that.  It only gives the mash profile and sparge profile seperately, with the water analysis in the recipe>water tab being based on the mash water. I could see the final effect by going to the water tool and putting in the total values (which makes sense).

Overall, this is a great tool and me going through this process (driven by my own misunderstanding) has actually helped a lot. It has also driven me to read a lot more (JP's books, Gordon Strong, etc), so overall my knowledge is better now.

I still think it would be useful if on the recipe>water tab, the water analysis was the total water, not just the mash (because the SO4:Cl ratio there does not reflect the final ratio that I'm targeting if you make edits, which the program allows), but I can live with that.  Of course, you are correct in pointing out that this is just an estimate and is influenced by multiple processes throughout the brewing/fermenting process.

BTW - I spent some time comparing this to Bru'n water and the numbers come out super close. Very impressive!  That's also including the acid adjustments. So easy having here in one place (assuming I can actually use and understand it!!)

Offline Oginme

  • BeerSmith Grandmaster Brewer
  • *****
  • Posts: 2982
  • Goats, guitars, and a home brew; Life is good!
    • Longvu LaManchas
Re: Water profile tool vs calcs in a recipe
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 06:49:39 AM »
Thanks Bob and Oginme


I still think it would be useful if on the recipe>water tab, the water analysis was the total water, not just the mash (because the SO4:Cl ratio there does not reflect the final ratio that I'm targeting if you make edits, which the program allows), but I can live with that.  Of course, you are correct in pointing out that this is just an estimate and is influenced by multiple processes throughout the brewing/fermenting process.


This indeed would be useful.  Another option to 'add all water agents to mash' would also help.  While I mostly do full volume BIAB, the ability when I do sparge to add the mineral salts to the mash water and then sparge with my well water or acid adjusted water would be very useful.  I know that I am not the only one who manages the water agents this way.
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!