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Water quality

anak85

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Hi there!

I have been brewing for a few months and now requested some values from our local water supplier regarding our water quality.

They said the water comes from various sources and these can change throughout the year.

But they were able to narrow the results to the following here in Germany:

pH-value                                                8,0 ? 8,5
Ca                                                          28 ? 34 mg/l
Mg                                                        6 ? 9 mg/l
Na                                                        10 ? 12 mg/l
Sulfate                                                  27 ? 30 mg/l
Chloride                                                17 ? 18 mg/l
Hardness                                            5 ? 7 ?dH
acid capacity 4,3                          1 ? 1,6 mmol/l

Sooo.... first of all. Are these values ok or is something too far off?

And secondly, how would I go about entering them into BeerSmith which requires parts per Million?

I just noticed bicarbonate (HCO3) is missing from the list he sent me. I asked for it but they didn't add it and also do not have it on their website for the general public. Is this an important factor I should research?

Thanks in advance!
Phillip
 
Yeah, is there somewhere you can have your water tested by a 3rd party?

carbonates/bicarbonates are important as that's your alkalinity. You don't have a lot of hardness (calcium + magnesium) to offset any of the total alkalinity and you'll need bicarbonates to determine your residual alkalinity and how much buffering you need to overcome to get into the appropriate mash pH range.

Mark
 
First, your water is pretty good.  You have enough of the key ions to brew as it is and also enough room to add more water salts to affect flavor if you want.  Your alkalinity is a bit on the higher side, so you will have some buffering capacity you may need to overcome for a good mash pH.

To enter this into BeerSmith, you want to start with adding it to the water profiles by clicking on 'ingredients' > 'water' and then 'add water'. Enter in the values you do have (hint: mg/l is actually ppm).  The one conversion you will need to make is dH to ppm for the hardess.  The conversion is 1 dH = 17.848 ppm hardness as CaCO3. To convert this to H2CO3 (Bicarbonate), divide this value by 1.22.  So your hardness value should be (using the average value) 6 dH * 17.848 = 102 ppm CaCO3. To get HCO3, take 102 ppm / 1.22 = 84 ppm HCO3.

To enter this into your water profile, add in all the minerals you have readily available.  Since they gave you a range for each mineral and ion, I would recommend using the average between the two. Luckily, the range is pretty tight on everything, so you won't go wrong for anything in the range provided.  Now put a value in the bicarbonate content to get the alkalinity to match your report (probably somewhere around 100 to 110 ppm off the top of my head).  Save the profile and you should be off and running.
 
Oginme said:
To enter this into your water profile, add in all the minerals you have readily available.  Since they gave you a range for each mineral and ion, I would recommend using the average between the two. Luckily, the range is pretty tight on everything, so you won't go wrong for anything in the range provided.  Now put a value in the bicarbonate content to get the alkalinity to match your report (probably somewhere around 100 to 110 ppm off the top of my head).  Save the profile and you should be off and running.

Thanks! I added the values as below.

But I am not sure what you mean exactly by "add in all the minerals you have readily available" and "Now put a value in the bicarbonate content to get the alkalinity to match your report (probably somewhere around 100 to 110 ppm off the top of my head)."

I thought I have the Bicarbonate value of 84 ppm.
 

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Sorry, I kind of messed up the maths trying to do too much without looking up the conversions.  Short answer is ignore the calculation to H2CO3 as I messed that up.  Your hardness is 102 ppm as CaCO3, since I did the first calculation correctly.  You can adjust the bicarbonate value to attain this hardness value which should give you a bicarbonate concentration of around 124 (102 * 1.22) which is the calculation I messed up.

 
Oginme said:
Sorry, I kind of messed up the maths trying to do too much without looking up the conversions.  Short answer is ignore the calculation to H2CO3 as I messed that up.  Your hardness is 102 ppm as CaCO3, since I did the first calculation correctly.  You can adjust the bicarbonate value to attain this hardness value which should give you a bicarbonate concentration of around 124 (102 * 1.22) which is the calculation I messed up.

Do you mean "effective hardness"? As this doesn't change no matter how I change my Bicarbonate value.

Edit: My alkalinity changed to 102. Is that what you meant?
 
Yes, Alkalinity is the field I meant to reference.

Effective hardness is set by the actual Ca and Mg concentrations along with the pH of the water.  It describes the actual buffering capacity the water has to changes in pH.

A good reference is in Brad's blog at http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/23/residual-alkalinity-and-ph-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

 
Oginme said:
Yes, Alkalinity is the field I meant to reference.

Effective hardness is set by the actual Ca and Mg concentrations along with the pH of the water.  It describes the actual buffering capacity the water has to changes in pH.

A good reference is in Brad's blog at http://beersmith.com/blog/2016/02/23/residual-alkalinity-and-ph-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

Great - thanks a lot!

Now the big question is, what should I be aiming for when making american style Pale Ales / IPAs?

My next brew day will have a 22L mash and a 13L fly sparge. I entered some values and chose a water profile from the list in BeerSmith. Does that make sense what I am doing for the mash water?

Edit: Or do I even bother change anything?
 

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I have a very simplified approach to water. 

Generally, I only add in those minerals to get to the minimum needed for good yeast activity and health, so that starts with a target Ca at around 50 to 60 ppm and Mg at around 10 ppm and not over 15 ppm.  Much more Ca and Mg will be extracted from the grains, but this provides a base line addition for good performance.

Chloride to Sulfate ratio is really a matter or personal preference.  Chlorides brings out the malt flavors whereas the Sulfates create a crisper finish which accentuates the bitterness.  Generally a ratio of 1:2 Chloride to Sulfate ratio is leaning heavily towards the bitter.  The absolute concentrations do not need to be high, but very low amounts will not be enough to influence the taste perceptions.  I try to keep my Chloride values between 70 ppm (my base water) and 150 ppm.  For Sulfates, values above 50 ppm up to 250 ppm are typical, over 300 ppm or so and the beer may start to become 'minerally' or give sulfury aromas. 

I highly recommend looking up Martin Brungard's treatise on water and water treatment which can be found here https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge.  The book 'Water' by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski (part of the Brewing Elements series) has a lot of very in depth information on water which covers all aspects including waste water treatment.  It can be a bit daunting, but if you are good at skimming and ignoring those sections which do not apply to you, it is well worth the read.

Sodium is another salt which enhances flavor, but I generally do not like adding it to my water as I am already high on Chloride.  On the water profile tool in BeerSmith, the resultant water profile will give you an indicator of both the ideal beer color range and affect on bitterness/maltiness for your chosen additions. 
 
Oginme said:
I have a very simplified approach to water. 

Generally, I only add in those minerals to get to the minimum needed for good yeast activity and health, so that starts with a target Ca at around 50 to 60 ppm and Mg at around 10 ppm and not over 15 ppm.  Much more Ca and Mg will be extracted from the grains, but this provides a base line addition for good performance.

Chloride to Sulfate ratio is really a matter or personal preference.  Chlorides brings out the malt flavors whereas the Sulfates create a crisper finish which accentuates the bitterness.  Generally a ratio of 1:2 Chloride to Sulfate ratio is leaning heavily towards the bitter.  The absolute concentrations do not need to be high, but very low amounts will not be enough to influence the taste perceptions.  I try to keep my Chloride values between 70 ppm (my base water) and 150 ppm.  For Sulfates, values above 50 ppm up to 250 ppm are typical, over 300 ppm or so and the beer may start to become 'minerally' or give sulfury aromas. 

I highly recommend looking up Martin Brungard's treatise on water and water treatment which can be found here https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge.  The book 'Water' by John Palmer and Colin Kaminski (part of the Brewing Elements series) has a lot of very in depth information on water which covers all aspects including waste water treatment.  It can be a bit daunting, but if you are good at skimming and ignoring those sections which do not apply to you, it is well worth the read.

Sodium is another salt which enhances flavor, but I generally do not like adding it to my water as I am already high on Chloride.  On the water profile tool in BeerSmith, the resultant water profile will give you an indicator of both the ideal beer color range and affect on bitterness/maltiness for your chosen additions.

Thanks for your input. So how would go about setting my profile for lets say 10L of water from Aachen?

I tried but land far from the 1:2 ratio of Chloride to Sulfate. Anything I do to change the Sulfate now would mush either Calcium or Magnesium too high. And Chloride is already at 73ppm on the bottom end of what you suggested.

All ingredients are easy accessible online here.

How would you modify for my situation?

 

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My water comes with a Chloride content of around 70 ppm, so unless I dilute it with RO or distilled, that becomes my bottom level.  You are not shackled with your water as I am with mine.  Reduce your table salt to bring the Chloride level down.
 
Oginme said:
My water comes with a Chloride content of around 70 ppm, so unless I dilute it with RO or distilled, that becomes my bottom level.  You are not shackled with your water as I am with mine.  Reduce your table salt to bring the Chloride level down.

So something along these lines?

 

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Looks like a good place to start.  You have a good ratio to emphasize bitterness without minimizing the malt character, enough base minerals (Ca, Mg) to promote good yeast activity and flocculation, and are not too high in any one ion which would cause it to dominate the flavor.  As with most things in brewing, your sensory results on this brew should guide you for the next time. If you want a drier finish, increase the sulfate content; softer and more malty, increase the chloride.
 
Oginme said:
Looks like a good place to start.  You have a good ratio to emphasize bitterness without minimizing the malt character, enough base minerals (Ca, Mg) to promote good yeast activity and flocculation, and are not too high in any one ion which would cause it to dominate the flavor.  As with most things in brewing, your sensory results on this brew should guide you for the next time. If you want a drier finish, increase the sulfate content; softer and more malty, increase the chloride.

Thanks!
Yes, we prefer our beers on the slight drier end. Do you mean change the ratio towards 2.1:1 sulfate / chloride?

So something like this ineasted? I went up on Calcium and Magnesium too in order to achieve that.
 

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A good sense of where you are going is in the lower right corner of the screen shots you posted.  Look at the 'Sulfate/Chloride Ratio' section and right below that is the sensory impact.  By changing from a ratio of 2.0 to 2.2 you moved the sensory perception from slightly bitter to bitter. All of this needs to be matched to your perception of bitterness once you have brewed your beer and the resultant impression used to target your next brew.

For instance, I seem to be highly sensitive to the harsh bitterness imparted by isomerized cohumulones.  Hops that I have tried for bittering such as Cluster, Cascade, Columbus bring with them a very harsh, sharp bittering to my taste.  On the other hand, Simcoe, East Kent Goldings, Challenger, Amarillo, come across as much smoother bitterness on my tongue.  Cross tasting some of my beers with other beer drinkers and comparing notes on the bitterness qualities has demonstrated my sensitivity in this area.  So far, the only common factor in my description of harsh bitterness and others as moderate is higher levels of bittering with high cohumulone content hops.  I made a clone of Deschutes Mirror Pond pale ale a few years back (all Cascade) and it was nearly undrinkable to me, but I have good friends who gladly quaffed it down and ask me if I am going to brew it again (fat chance).

This is why your tasting notes of each beer becomes important to deciding how to target the factors which emphasize or minimize hop presence. 
 
anak85 said:
Oginme said:
Looks like a good place to start.  You have a good ratio to emphasize bitterness without minimizing the malt character, enough base minerals (Ca, Mg) to promote good yeast activity and flocculation, and are not too high in any one ion which would cause it to dominate the flavor.  As with most things in brewing, your sensory results on this brew should guide you for the next time. If you want a drier finish, increase the sulfate content; softer and more malty, increase the chloride.

Thanks!
Yes, we prefer our beers on the slight drier end. Do you mean change the ratio towards 2.1:1 sulfate / chloride?

So something like this ineasted? I went up on Calcium and Magnesium too in order to achieve that.
Be careful with the total of sulphates and chloride. When sulphates are 100+, don't exceed 50 ppm chloride. If the sum is 150+, good chance the beer will be more minerally tasting and maybe harsh.

Mark
 
merfizle said:
Be careful with the total of sulphates and chloride. When sulphates are 100+, don't exceed 50 ppm chloride. If the sum is 150+, good chance the beer will be more minerally tasting and maybe harsh.

Mark

I generally run combined concentrations in the 150 to 200 ppm range and have never encountered this.  I once brought sulfate levels up to 250 ppm (with Chloride at 75 ppm) just to see what would happen.  The resulting beer did not get one comment from judges (and scored 40.5) in competition as an IPA.  Palmer and Kominski set a common range from 0 to 250 ppm for each of the components but caution that high values of BOTH will definitely lead to minerally flavors.  The only time I ran into issues with mineral flavor effects was when making a test batch and I overdosed the Sulfate to quite a bit above 300 ppm.  Definitely a limit there in my senses.

Mark, if you have a reference for the combined over 150 ppm, please post it.  I'd like to see what they did to arrive at those figures.

 
Oginme said:
merfizle said:
Be careful with the total of sulphates and chloride. When sulphates are 100+, don't exceed 50 ppm chloride. If the sum is 150+, good chance the beer will be more minerally tasting and maybe harsh.

Mark

I generally run combined concentrations in the 150 to 200 ppm range and have never encountered this.  I once brought sulfate levels up to 250 ppm (with Chloride at 75 ppm) just to see what would happen.  The resulting beer did not get one comment from judges (and scored 40.5) in competition as an IPA.  Palmer and Kominski set a common range from 0 to 250 ppm for each of the components but caution that high values of BOTH will definitely lead to minerally flavors.  The only time I ran into issues with mineral flavor effects was when making a test batch and I overdosed the Sulfate to quite a bit above 300 ppm.  Definitely a limit there in my senses.

Mark, if you have a reference for the combined over 150 ppm, please post it.  I'd like to see what they did to arrive at those figures.

Hi, what I was referring to was this from the Bru'n water site here: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

Chloride ? Chloride accentuates fullness and sweetness and improves beer stability and clarity.  The ideal range is 10 to 100 ppm, but the upper limit should be reduced in water with high sulfate concentration to avoid harshness or minerally flavor.  When brewing with sulfate concentration of over 100 ppm, limiting the chloride content to around 50 ppm is recommended.  The minerally flavor of Dortmunder Export may be due to the typical 130 ppm chloride concentration along with the 300+ ppm sulfate content in Dortmund?s water.  Be aware that the chloride ion is not the same as the disinfectant, chlorine and should not be confused with it.

Obviously, if something like a Dortmunder is the goal or for highly hopped lagers/ales, you probably could get away with more in total. Also, each person has a different threshold. I'm fairly sensitive to minerally beers, light lagers/ales in particular so try to be careful in how much sodium, sulphates and chlorides I have in my brewing water.

Mark
 
Thanks for the reference, it has been a while since I read Martin's Water Knowledge.  I think in general this is sound advice, but not really specific enough.  In Palmer's recommendations for water based upon style, the averages for quite a few styles are well in excess of 250 ppm combined of Chloride and Sulfate.  Nearly all his recommendations for English styles exceed 200 ppm if not 250 ppm total combined concentrations.  Not that John is the absolute guru when it comes to water quality, but his published list is quite a bit more recent than Martin's paper and it derives mostly from his and Colin's book. 

Martin's work is just a bit more conservative in his recommendations.
 
Oginme said:
Thanks for the reference, it has been a while since I read Martin's Water Knowledge.  I think in general this is sound advice, but not really specific enough.  In Palmer's recommendations for water based upon style, the averages for quite a few styles are well in excess of 250 ppm combined of Chloride and Sulfate.  Nearly all his recommendations for English styles exceed 200 ppm if not 250 ppm total combined concentrations.  Not that John is the absolute guru when it comes to water quality, but his published list is quite a bit more recent than Martin's paper and it derives mostly from his and Colin's book. 

Martin's work is just a bit more conservative in his recommendations.

You bet! I still use Bru'n water along with BS3 and Brewersfriend tools hand-in-hand with the Water book. I need to run some water/beer experiments to see what my taste threshold is. I think everyone's different and want to see what constitutes "too minerally" for me.

Cheers.
 
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