Author Topic: Water/grain ratio  (Read 5268 times)

Offline PeeBee

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2019, 03:09:44 AM »
as oginme stated, changing your order also fixed that for me as well. and "Strike" isn't a task, but a temperature really, "strike" temp refers to the temp you need to reach to get the correct temperature for your mash. Therefore BS automatically provides you the "strike" temp when you set up a single infusion mash.

in fact even in your googledoc writeup your screenshots show the same thing. only the initial water addition.

Is the issue you're having perhaps that when you setup for a 67C mash, the grainfather connect does not automatically start with a temp high enough (75c?) to get your "Strike" temp?
You are right, "Strike" isn't a task. It is part two of a filthy fix to force Grainfather Connect (not Beersmith!) to include "strike" procedure as an automated mash step, so the Grainfather reaches strike temperature, beeps, and waits until the set button is pressed once the grain has been mixed in where upon it proceeds at mash temperature. So nothing to do with Beersmith, and the step looks pretty bazaar out of context with its part one (from which it forms). Sorry, I shouldn't have allowed something so distracting to appear in this thread.

But I will need time to consider whether setting "recoverable mash loss" to zero offers a useable work around for the water/grain ratio issue. Pity, the introduction of "recoverable mash tun deadspace" was a great advance (for BSv3 users), especially for users of Grainfathers (I run a 3V brewery too, in conjunction with Beersmith, the Grainfather is my "pilot" brewery). Thank you.

Offline PeeBee

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2019, 03:49:56 AM »
As someone who does 90+% full volume biab, i really don't pay attention to the water to grain ratio.  I want the full volume of water which would give me a water to grist ratio well in excess of the minimum needed to ensure good starch solubility and enzyme mobility.  When i do step infusions on my 3v system, i only really care about the effective water to grist ratio in 5hat first step to ensure i meet that minimum as well.  Not sure there is an issue here that makes a significant difference. 

I di see what you are looking at, just not sure why it matters beyond the initial infusion step.
Thanks. I didn't pay much attention to water/grain ratio until I got this Grainfather and wanted to continue using Beersmith (because I also have a 1/2 barrel 3 vessel brewery too). I am also quite capable of working around the issues with Beersmith. But I wasn't asking for help, I was reporting an inconsistency in Beersmith, which this thread seems to have successfully proven.

The "water/grain ratio" is being calculated differently for the second and subsequent steps of a "normal" mash and for all steps in a "BIAB" type mash.

It probably came about when the new "recoverable mash tun deadspace" facility was introduced (which fixed some far more insidious issues). As a result of this thread it also high-lighted some other issues:

1: The order of mash steps is not stable (or user configurable). In v3 that is.

2: "Grain absorption" would be better as an Equipment parameter rather than a global parameter (which is made clearer by an older "fix" which split the global parameter in two, one for "BIAB").

3: The "mash tun deadspace addition" in mash steps shouldn't give the impression it can be edited (should be "greyed out").

Okay, the last two weren't "high-lighted" but did become more obvious meddling with this stuff.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 04:04:39 AM by PeeBee »

Offline Oginme

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2019, 05:05:43 AM »
I can say from experience with my own mash steps and also in altering yours that I can reorder the mash steps as you indicated they should be and it remains as such.  I opened up the mash tab and in the dialog box with the mash steps clicked once on the 'strike' step.  I then clicked on the icon below the dialog box labeled 'move step up' and it readjusted the order of the steps accordingly 1,2,3.  I saved the recipe and closed it before exiting out of BeerSmith.  I started BeerSmith a bit later and opened the recipe again and the steps were still in the corrected order.  I am not sure why this is not happening for you.

I fully agree that the grain absorption figure should be included in the equipment profile and have made this suggestion directly to Brad previously.  I am sure that if enough people request it that he would make the change in upcoming releases.  As someone who moves between various equipment set up, it is frustrating to have to go in and adjust the grain absorption figure for each.

Why should the mash tun addition not be editable?  It can always be adjusted within the recipe by editing the equipment profile and if I were to switch my Gott coolers around, I would need to change that figure as one has a false bottom but the other is just a braided coil.  Having it available to adjust gives me the flexibility to make that change without having to make a whole new equipment profile or editing that separately within the recipe.  I can think of arguments both ways but the biggest advantage BeerSmith has is the flexibility of use and adjusting the parameters not only of equipment but also of the root models to match the users process.  I know that there are other Grainfather users on this forum, maybe a direct question of how they were able to overcome the mash issue you are encountering might give you some new ideas.
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Offline PeeBee

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2019, 06:30:57 AM »
? I can reorder the mash steps as you indicated they should be and it remains as such. ?

Nope, it's got it in for me! (See attachment).

? I fully agree that the grain absorption figure should be included in the equipment profile ?
:)

? Why should the mash tun addition not be editable?  It can always be adjusted within the recipe by editing the equipment profile and if I were to switch my Gott coolers around, I would need to change that figure as one has a false bottom but the other is just a braided coil.  Having it available to adjust gives me the flexibility to make that change without having to make a whole new equipment profile or editing that separately within the recipe.  I can think of arguments both ways but the biggest advantage BeerSmith has is the flexibility of use and adjusting the parameters not only of equipment but also of the root models to match the users process.  I know that there are other Grainfather users on this forum, maybe a direct question of how they were able to overcome the mash issue you are encountering might give you some new ideas.
I meant in the "mash step" on the Mash page (see attachments), it isn't editable there but the suggestion is that it is. Not a problem to me, but I have seen posts from others struggling with this.

I too am well happy with the flexibility of Beersmith, which will even bend to my kooky ideas. But I also write articles to translate ideas to others (like the articles I attached in this thread) and I'd rather not tell people to ignore this and that because "this and that" will lead you astray. It just doesn't come over as a recommendation to use Beersmith.

I do give other Grainfather users the opportunity to make suggestions about my ideas, but the article I attached attracted zero comment. I think this thread has taught me I might be thinking a good bit further in distance than just "outside of the box".

Offline Oginme

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2019, 06:38:47 AM »
On the mash tab if you click on any step in the dialog box, you can click below to 'edit step' and that step will pop up for you to adjust.  Is this what you are looking for? 
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Offline PeeBee

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2019, 06:54:58 AM »
Not what I was looking for - it is what I was looking at. And you can edit "mash tun deadspace addition". But that's the problem. The change doesn't stick. Nor do I think it should stick, the change is made in the equipment profile and being able to make the change to individual mash steps will lead to madness (not for me - I'm already there).

Offline Oginme

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2019, 07:09:06 AM »
I am trying to figure out what you mean by 'it doesn't stick'.  Are you saying that once you edit a mash step within a recipe that the recipe automatically reverts back to the previous mash step version once you have clicked OK?  Are you saying that when you have edited the mash step within a recipe that the mash profile your library does not reflect this change?  Or are you saying that when you edit the mash profile in your profile library that it is not reflected in the recipe?

One thing to note that every recipe in BeerSmith is a self contained archive.  Once you have created a recipe, all the profiles in that recipe are locked and can only be changed within the recipe.  Same goes with ingredients and pricing.  The rationale for this is so that you have a permanent archive of the recipe you brewed which will not be affected by future changes to the profiles or ingredients outside the recipe.  The downside is that if you change one of your profiles outside the recipe, you must then go into each recipe you want to be affected by that change and update the profile by re-clicking on the profiles and selecting the updated version.

Does this information help with your frustration? 
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Offline PeeBee

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2019, 08:57:37 AM »
Open the mash step. Change the "mash tun deadspace addition" (to, say, zero from 3.5). Just for fun change the step time. OK th dialog box. Reopen the mash step. The step time is still changed, but the "mash tun deadspace addition" is back to what was (3.5), i.e. it hasn't "stuck".

Suits me. I can't see why it would be changed here. But it is giving the impression that you can. Doesn't cause me any frustration either, but I know it does cause frustration with some folk, hence I've said it needs to be "greyed out". It is good enough to edit it in the profile (I did mean the recipe's copy of the profile in my last post).

Offline dtapke

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Re: Water/grain ratio
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2019, 02:26:08 PM »
Can confirm the inability to change tun deadspace within the mash box.

Can confirm that when i alter the mash steps (move up a step) click "OK" at the bottom, and then click "OK" when exiting out of the recipe, the order stays the same when re-opening. I can confirm it acts this way on both a PC running windows 7, as well as an iMac running Mojave 10.14.3, running BS3 3.0.8
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Offline PeeBee

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Re: Water/grain ratio - Where we are:
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2019, 02:38:31 AM »
This is my summary of where (I think) we are up to:

The discussion on water/grain ratio has proved the value is inconsistent depending where it is displayed. But I'm being careful not to say which interpretation is "correct". (EDIT: By that I mean should the ratio include water in the "deadspaces", or should it not).

But along the way other issues were discussed of which the mash step ordering, which I am having frustration with, is outstanding.

I know this issue is demonstrated in the BSMX I posted (mash steps disorganised), but the error cannot be replicated on a different system (i.e. when the mash steps are put in the right order they stay in that order - but not on my system!). So finding the error is perhaps going to require a more "holistic" approach.

I'm running Beersmith v3.0.6 on Windows 10 Pro version 1809 (build 17763.316).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 04:57:51 AM by PeeBee »

Offline PeeBee

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Mash steps disorganised
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2019, 02:23:04 AM »
This was off-subject (not about water/grain ratio) so I'll open another thread for it having discovered a forum for version 3 now (but it seems this problem has a history that goes well back).

I found the cause of the issue disorganising my mash steps. Having found it I can search the issue and find dozens of posts on the same subject going back a while too (but it hasn't been fixed). It's not a bug, it's a rash decision made by the programmer (Brad?): That mash steps always increase in temperature, so the mash steps can be sorted by "step temperature".

Of course there will always be people who want to step down in temperature, but Beersmith can't accommodate those people (not between Beersmith sessions), and that list of people now includes me!

? Can confirm that when i alter the mash steps (move up a step) click "OK" at the bottom, and then click "OK" when exiting out of the recipe, the order stays the same when re-opening. I can confirm it acts this way on both a PC running windows 7, as well as an iMac running Mojave 10.14.3, running BS3 3.0.8
You must exit the program and go back in, not just the recipe.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 02:34:41 AM by PeeBee »