Author Topic: Mead versus Est ABV  (Read 2762 times)

Offline dtapke

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2019, 09:21:45 AM »
Hey look at that! you're a grandmaster now!
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Offline Oginme

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2019, 09:39:46 AM »
Yup, he hit 100 posts!  Congrats Mr_Beer!
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Offline jomebrew

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2019, 10:03:54 AM »
It is pretty well known, though not likely by new/novice users, that Beersmith has a steep learning curve though a lot depends on how you want to use it.

Your original post asked if you were using the tool improperly or missing something.  I think Oginme answered exactly what you sought and you kindly thanked him.  That is the beauty of the forum and brilliant folks like oginme, who interpret your issue and apply it to their understanding of how the software works including nuances like this one

This issue is documented. Just not in a format that was helpful to you. As you watched the video, it didn't click that the max ABV in a recipe would be limited by the alcohol tolerance of the yeast you selected.  Brad documented this exact question in the Beersmith 3 New features as well (http://beersmith.com/beersmith-3-features/ see Mead).  Again, maybe you didn't read it, maybe it wasn't relative at the time and long forgotten.

As for snark, we do get a little defensive when we think folks are bashing the tool when it is not, in our opinion, the tool that is causing the issue but more of an issue how it is being used.  In this case, it feels like you are bashing the documentation without a reference so, it seems you are just ranting about it versus being a bit more constructive and pointing out the discrepancy. At least that gives Brad a specific to track a defect against.

Hope your Mead turns out fantastic.  I have about 70lbs honey waiting for me to cross the beer / mead chasm and make something interesting. Sadly, I am not a fan of honey flavor so getting the inertia to cross the chasm is difficult.

Cheers!

Thank you for your link -- I have viewed it many times.  Everyone on this thread, with the exception of your comment, seems a shade snarky or defensive on the topic of improvement.

I have communicated with Mr. Smith on this topic and his responses to date have been non-committal.  It is his product, his company and his budget.  He understands where he wants to take the product and the audience it will serve.

Regarding software, development and refinement is not rocket science.  If fact with modern tools, it is not even very hard.  Like you, I have extensive experience, both as a developer and in a management capacity.  So I believe I speak with the voice of experience. 

Restating my prior post, my thesis is that all software starts out trying to solve a business/process problem.  Initially it is tailored to the "expert".  As the software becomes better, the documentation improves and more people start to use it who are not experts.  Eventually the software will embody the business/process characteristics to assist the novice in usage and understanding the problem space.

What is difficult is determining the objectives of the software itself, the target audience and of course the budget and time frame as the product evolves.  Those items interact and help explain how and why the various features are implemented.   

My evaluation is that at this point BS3 has great capability but expects the user to be an "expert" or close to it.  The transition for the future could be to change the product so it is more usable to the novice user and expand the market.  Trust me when I say that there are more novice users than "expert" users in any market space.

Offline BOB357

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2019, 12:36:23 PM »
Well stated jomebrew!
Bob

Offline jomebrew

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2019, 08:57:34 AM »
Not surprising, this thread helped me with a couple recipes just this last week.  I even found another reference to the yeast settings capping of ABV by Brad in the process.

I made a DIPA using 2 packets of SafAle US-05 that was targeted for 9%ABV.  My new brew system has a much higher efficiency (15% higher) which I didn't account for in the recipe.  After adjusting the efficiency, the estimated ABV jumped to 10% exactly.  My 1.093 finished at 1.016 or 10.2%.  I edited the detail of US-05 and found it is capped at 10%.  I changed it to 13 and BeerSmith shows over 10% as expected.

Same for my intended Triple IPA I am planning. White Labs WPL090 is capped at 10% in the configuration and thus the ABV was capped at 10%.  I am now increasing the value on all the yeasts I use.


Offline dtapke

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2019, 09:25:00 AM »
So, did he just put 10% down across the board? WLP090 can hit 15% without much trouble if i'm not mistaken.

I see he's even got 099 listed at 18%, and I know that'll hit 25%+ if you're good to it and know what you're doing.

I'm curious why his numbers are inaccurate... I can understand the inaccuracies in hops and fermentables as they change from crop to crop, but yeast is a pretty set tolerance
32g eHERMS
Drinking: Dopplebock, NEIPA, Pils
Primary: empty
Secondary/Lagering:
Next Brew: RIS

Offline Oginme

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2019, 10:46:22 AM »
I may be wrong, but I believe that most of the numbers come from the specification sheets from the manufacturers.  A lot of these have been in the program from the beginning (V1) and I am not sure any updates to more recent specs have been made.  I do know that in the 6 years I have been brewing, several of the yeasts I use have been updated by the manufacturers with new limits and I have updated these myself in my copy of BeerSmith.
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Offline BILLY BREW

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2019, 06:23:16 AM »
Long and short of the conversation, I would think, would be to make your batch, take your readings and figure out your calcs. based on that. I have been making mead for some 30 years, and with all the additives, honey profiles, yeast variants, etc To expect any program to give accurate findings is possible, but would constantly be changing to add variant ingredients on top of yeast strains, batches, age, and climatic conditions.
As an armature beekeeper, there are 10's of thousands of honeys. And that is just domestic. If you buy your honey from a store, there is a good chance that you are not buying honey at all but a sugar blend from China that is sold to importers. That in itself would completely screw up any readings, baselines.
My humble advice... Make it, try it, if you like it then clone it. If you don't figure out why and change it. But ALWAYS buy your honey from a local keeper to ensure that what you are buying is actually honey, and a thumbnail of what kind.
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Offline jomebrew

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2019, 10:44:34 AM »
The two yeasts I looked, 090 and SafAle US-05 were  at 10%.  It looks like they did not come from the manufacturer.  Maybe a new install is different.  I upgraded from 1.4 to 2 to 3 over the years.

Offline Oginme

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2019, 11:28:00 AM »
Fermentis lists US-05 at 11% for alcohol tolerance right now.  I looked back on a few other forums and it seems like there was some discussion around 2007 to 2009 about what the actual limit was as no one could find it on a spec sheet for that product. 
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Offline jomebrew

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2019, 12:05:19 PM »
Fermentis lists US-05 at 11% for alcohol tolerance right now.  I looked back on a few other forums and it seems like there was some discussion around 2007 to 2009 about what the actual limit was as no one could find it on a spec sheet for that product.

I changed the entry on my BS3 to 13 so I don't have to remember the yeast settings will limit my potential though this will come back to haunts some time later I am sure. I checked their website which now says 9-11%. 

honestly, I would like to see a flag indicating the estimated ABV is based on yeast settings and not the recipe. I fnot for this post, I would have had no idea and not sure I would have crafted a good enough search term.


Offline Oginme

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2019, 12:32:41 PM »
I have answered this same question several times since the update to the software, so the threads are out there.   It just may be the search based upon the title of the thread is not very revealing to the actual question asked and answered.
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Offline djlysuc

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2019, 05:51:57 AM »
I would expect that if there were any internal inconsistency regarding ingredients or profiles that BS would advise the user -- popup window text, red blinking text, something.  After all the program "knows" there is an issue and it should not be a guessing game to determine what it is.

Sorry to go back to brewing advice, but I'm making my first mead and from what I am seeing and assuming is if you want a sweet mead then that is mainly done by overdoing the honey so there is excess fermentables and sweetness by the time the yeast get killed off by alcohol content? so there is no maximum amount you should put in? Also is it possible to make a sweet mead without hitting the maximum alcohol tolerance of the yeast? Would a certain non/part fermentable sugar be my best option or is it best to get the sweetness another way?

Offline Oginme

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Re: Mead versus Est ABV
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2019, 08:15:48 AM »
I am by no means a mead expert, but usually sweet mead is made by fermenting the batch out, stopping yeast activity by adding Sulfites, and then back sweetening with honey or sugars to get the flavor you want.  You can also try to halt the fermentation process by adding the Sulfites in some point and someone more experienced may be able to tell you how to do that.
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