Author Topic: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.  (Read 1436 times)

Offline LeeH

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AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« on: December 06, 2018, 06:16:39 AM »
Can these the following water additions be added into BS3?  They are very popular here in the UK and are how treat my water.


 https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/ams-crs-250ml/

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/dwb/

Offline LeeH

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2018, 12:50:50 AM »
bump

Offline brewfun

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2018, 06:04:29 AM »
You can add something to BS3 by simply going to the appropriate ingredient category (in this case, Misc) and adding the item.

When you add to Misc, you can specify the dose per liter. This is just a coarse amount, which you can then adjust as needed in the recipe.

There's no information on your link about what DWB actually contributes. I find that a little problematic.
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Offline MartinFa

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2019, 04:32:09 AM »
You can add something to BS3 by simply going to the appropriate ingredient category (in this case, Misc) and adding the item.

When you add to Misc, you can specify the dose per liter. This is just a coarse amount, which you can then adjust as needed in the recipe.

There's no information on your link about what DWB actually contributes. I find that a little problematic.

AMS/CRS is not an ingredient: it's a blend of acids used to reduce water alkalinity and pH. Therefore adding it as an ingredient is of no use. It needs to be a part of the water treatment products, in a similar way to lactic and phosphoric acids.

Note: I don't have BS3; only BS2. But when I played with BS3 I looked for AMS/CRS in the water treatment tab and found it missing. It's presence as a water treatment in BS3 would tip the balance for me to upgrade.

Offline Oginme

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2019, 05:20:50 AM »
Brewfun is correct that the acids used for pH adjustment are in the misc ingredients listing.  BeerSmith limits the acids used for pH adjustment based upon the exact spelling of Lactic Acid or Phosphoric Acid in the name of the ingredient.  You can add your acid blend by duplicating one of these existing acids and then appending the name "AMS" or "DWB" onto the ingredient.  You will need to play around with the strength (% acid) to get the response you want of dosage vs pH drop correct.

Looking at the data sheets, I would be in agreement with Brewfun in that there is no specific description of what acids are being used for the blend and I would be loathe to put something into my pot which has not been defined well.  But that is a personal bias.  The effect certain ions have on mineral balance can cause unexpected results if one of the counter ions happens to cause a non-soluble precipitate with either Calcium or Magnesium.
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Offline brewfun

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2019, 09:13:51 AM »
AMS/CRS is not an ingredient: it's a blend of acids

Anything that goes into a product to be consumed by humans is an ingredient. This includes "salt to taste."

As a "blend of acids" it's nondescript, as nothing is provided to base a calculation upon. Instead, there's just a rough addition amount. Besides, I think they're probably comprised of some very cheap mineral salts, which is very different than acids. One might simply substitute the minerals mentioned and achieve a usable result.

BeerSmith Misc ingredients allow for calculating dose based on volume. Since a range amount is all that's provided for AMS (nothing for DWB) this can be adjusted in the recipe to reflect the actual amount needed.

The link shows AMS's impact on alkalinity, not pH. BeerSmith 3's water function does calculate alkalinity, which is not the same as pH. So, the mineral contribution of a specific dose need to be entered for BeerSmith 3 to calculate the alkalinity.

Usually, ingredients like AMS & DWB are formulated for a specific set of starting water specifications. Unless you have those specifications, all bets are off about how well your results will match their predictions. 

Personally, I find it effective and easy to just weight out minerals for mash and boil and add them directly. I add minerals for flavor impact, not mash pH. Then I can choose the exact acid I need to adjust pH and get further changes to mineral ions.

I don't want you to think that I'm dismissing these products. Rather there is a lot of missing information about them that would make me change my answer about where they belong in BeerSmith. A major point to me is that I don't know the other half of the ions they're showing. Is it Calcium? Probably. But it could be sodium, potassium or something else. Is there an actual acid in it? Dunno and would have to do the guesswork based on the alkalinity reduction but even then, I can't be sure because I don't know the other ions. 







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Offline MartinFa

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 09:21:16 AM »
Apologies; I realise I sounded really dogmatic in my last post - which wasn't intended. I accept that acid additions can indeed be considered as ingredients (though I would not really class them that way).

The more I learn about water chemistry (I never did chemistry at school, btw!), the more I realise I don't know.

I've previously created a spreadsheet to calculate the amount of AMS to add to an input water profile in order to achieve a desired target profile, so I'd assumed that the information published by Brupaks / Murphy & Sons relating to its effects on alkalinity and mineral content might be sufficient to provide the basis for calculations for treatment of a given water profile in BS in order to achieve a desired profile.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 09:23:11 AM by MartinFa »

Offline dtapke

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 03:13:54 PM »
You could add it as a water profile if you knew the composition. That may be best if its a "fix all" product that has multiple things in it.


also, this sh*t has Arsenic and Lead in it?!? throw it in the trash.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 03:19:07 PM by dtapke »
32g eHERMS
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Offline brewfun

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2019, 05:31:03 PM »
The more I learn about water chemistry (I never did chemistry at school, btw!), the more I realise I don't know.

THIS I can totally identify with! I have shelves full of related books for reference because I can't remember everything.

Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline MartinFa

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2019, 07:34:03 AM »
also, this sh*t has Arsenic and Lead in it?!? throw it in the trash.

No, I don't think it has... All these type of food grade products in the UK have regulatory maximum amounts. I believe what they're doing is quoting the maximum allowable values by regulation rather than going to the trouble of measuring and quoting actuals. E.g. the lactic acid I buy is quoted as having max arsenic < 1ppm and lead < 10ppm, but doesn't give any actual value.

Our water supply also has maximum allowed values for arsenic (max prescribed concentration - 10 ?gAs/l; actual mean of measurements - 0.2 ), lead (max prescribed concentration - 10 ?gPb/l; actual mean of measurements - 0.78), & many others. I'm not sure how ?g/litre corresponds to ppm, though. I guess it will vary by mineral.

Note after posting... the BB software has changed the micro- symbols (mu) into question marks (?)   :o
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 07:38:25 AM by MartinFa »

Offline MartinFa

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2019, 07:39:36 AM »
The more I learn about water chemistry (I never did chemistry at school, btw!), the more I realise I don't know.

THIS I can totally identify with! I have shelves full of related books for reference because I can't remember everything.
Ditto. Except I have to change the "everything" to "anything"!

Offline dtapke

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2019, 10:34:35 AM »
also, this sh*t has Arsenic and Lead in it?!? throw it in the trash.

No, I don't think it has... All these type of food grade products in the UK have regulatory maximum amounts. I believe what they're doing is quoting the maximum allowable values by regulation rather than going to the trouble of measuring and quoting actuals. E.g. the lactic acid I buy is quoted as having max arsenic < 1ppm and lead < 10ppm, but doesn't give any actual value.

Our water supply also has maximum allowed values for arsenic (max prescribed concentration - 10 ?gAs/l; actual mean of measurements - 0.2 ), lead (max prescribed concentration - 10 ?gPb/l; actual mean of measurements - 0.78), & many others. I'm not sure how ?g/litre corresponds to ppm, though. I guess it will vary by mineral.

Note after posting... the BB software has changed the micro- symbols (mu) into question marks (?)   :o

interesting that none of the other ingredients via that company or page (maltmiller) list that... I'm assuming that traces were found and that meant they had to disclose it.

as far as water goes, yes there's a max limit, which is why I personally use RO/DI water to brew with, so that i'm starting with a clean slate every batch.
32g eHERMS
Drinking: Cassia Stout, Dopplebock,Cream ale, Brut IPA
Primary:
Next Brew: Brut V2

Offline MartinFa

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2019, 12:20:49 PM »
also, this sh*t has Arsenic and Lead in it?!? throw it in the trash.

No, I don't think it has... All these type of food grade products in the UK have regulatory maximum amounts. I believe what they're doing is quoting the maximum allowable values by regulation rather than going to the trouble of measuring and quoting actuals. E.g. the lactic acid I buy is quoted as having max arsenic < 1ppm and lead < 10ppm, but doesn't give any actual value.

Our water supply also has maximum allowed values for arsenic (max prescribed concentration - 10 ?gAs/l; actual mean of measurements - 0.2 ), lead (max prescribed concentration - 10 ?gPb/l; actual mean of measurements - 0.78), & many others. I'm not sure how ?g/litre corresponds to ppm, though. I guess it will vary by mineral.

Note after posting... the BB software has changed the micro- symbols (mu) into question marks (?)   :o

interesting that none of the other ingredients via that company or page (maltmiller) list that... I'm assuming that traces were found and that meant they had to disclose it.

as far as water goes, yes there's a max limit, which is why I personally use RO/DI water to brew with, so that i'm starting with a clean slate every batch.
The contaminant values come from the manufacturer's - Murphy & Sons - old data sheet, which I have a copy of, and appears on the Malt Miller website. Interestingly, the datasheet on Murphy's website (https://www.murphyandson.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/AMS-TDS-2018.pdf) no longer lists any contaminants! Maybe people were being put off by arsenic & lead!

Like yourself, I'll typically use RO water for 50% to 100% of my liquor, except when I'm doing stouts or porters... our tap water here is stupidly hard (alkalinity = 292ppm as HCO3, as measured by my Salifert kit) but barely needs treatment for stouts. It's a different matter for pale ales!

Offline patwestlake

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Re: AMS, DWB additions in water treatment.
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2019, 11:16:51 AM »
I think something as been overlooked here;

AMS (or CRS) is used for carbonate reduction by addition of a controlled mixture of dilute HCl and H2SO4 (Hydrochloric and sulphuric acids). As such it does more than just reduce carbonate and pH as it adds chloride and sulphate; it is not, therefore, just another acid like lactic or phosphoric. From the manufacturers;

35ml of AMS per 100l of water reduces the alkalinity by 64 mg/litre (ppm) and increases chloride levels by 22.5 mg/litre (ppm) and sulphate levels by 31 mg/litre (ppm).

That information should allow it to be built into Beersmith.

Regards, Pat