Author Topic: OG/FG issue  (Read 781 times)

Offline dfoster

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OG/FG issue
« on: November 08, 2018, 11:41:04 AM »
When creating recipes, my Beersmith 3 will not go over 10% expected ABV. Anything above that point adjusts the OG still but equally ads to the FG...which isn't right at all obviously. I can add DME and it treats it as a complete unfermentable...same goes for any grain, etc.

Any idea why it won't go over 10%?

Online dtapke

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 12:25:54 PM »
Mind sharing a recipe that you've got this happening for? I have no problem creating recipes over 10% expected in BS3, in fact for fun i just added a 50K of malt to a 5 batch recipe and get an est ABV of 77.3% lol
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Primary: Brut IPA
Next Brew: Brut V2

Online Oginme

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 01:02:54 PM »
The issue with the OG/FG is in the cap on alcohol tolerance of the yeast you add to the recipe.  BeerSmith 3 added the limitation on ABV based upon the yeast tolerance. 

If you want to work around this issue, edit the yeast within the recipe and change to alcohol tolerance limit.
Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline bwestfall03

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2018, 08:15:41 AM »
I am having this same issue adding a new yeast. I can't set the Alcohol tolerance above 10%.

Online dtapke

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 08:33:48 AM »
This seems to be an issue in BS Mobile, I also cannot add a yeast with an alcohol tolerance above 10% via BS-m. I'm able to change it via bs3 though. Perhaps add your yeast ingredient in bs3 and then save/import to bs mobile via the cloud
32g eHERMS
Drinking: Cassia Stout, Dopplebock,Cream ale,
Primary: Brut IPA
Next Brew: Brut V2

Offline monstervic

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2019, 06:52:34 AM »
Hi All,

I have the same kind of issue.

I have brewed a Barley Wine 2 months ago with 2 packages of US-05.   
Beersmith 2   estimated the FG to 1.026   and I can tell you it was spot on perfectly ABV was 10.7% at the end.

1 week ago I have upgraded to Beersmith 3 and exactly the same recipe  in BS3  is showing estimated FG  as 1.045   and as the other's said it is topping to 10%.   

Since I have the proof that BS2 was spot on with the estimation, something is definitely wrong here with BS3.

I have both BS2 and BS3 on my computer and switching from one to the other this difference is very visible and both is using the same recipe source directory of course.

Any idea ?

Online Oginme

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2019, 06:58:56 AM »
See my post above.  BS2 does not use the maximum alcohol tolerance for the yeast strain used; BS3 does.
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Offline monstervic

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2019, 07:06:52 AM »
See my post above.  BS2 does not use the maximum alcohol tolerance for the yeast strain used; BS3 does.

I saw your post, but what I'm saying it's wrong how BS3 calculates, since BS2  was spot on the target and reached 1.026 nicely.
OG was 1.106

If I would type in the same recipe now to BS3 I wouldn't use US-05 since I would think it won't go below 1.045 and that would be far too sweet even for a barley wine.
But that's not the reality since BS2 was right.

Offline monstervic

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2019, 07:20:45 AM »
Hmm.

If I'm getting more into the details.

In BS2 estimated   OG was 1.118   and estimated FG was 1.026  this was with 70% BH efficiency and estimated 12,3%  ABV.

But I had only 63% BH Efficiency on this batch so OG was 1.106 but still I have arrived to the 1.026  with 10.7%   ABV at the end. 

Just tested,   I have to raise the US-05 Alcohol tolerance in BS3   to 13.00%  to show the same 1.026  as estimated FG which might be right since the estimated original plan was 12,3% ABV

if I'm changing the BH Efficiency in the recipe plan to the real   62.9% what I had then the figures are much better it is nicely estimating the 1.106 OG but the  estimated FG is still only 1.032 and not the real 1.026 what was at the end.   

Maybe that's just luck that I have reached the 1.026 and 10,7%, maybe that's because I have used double amount of US-05 than usual ? 

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2019, 08:24:18 AM »
There were issues brought up in the past since the program did not indicate that the yeast would not continue to ferment above the upper limit.  Brad responded by applying the maximum published alcohol tolerance as a safety net for those who brew much larger beers.  This is not to say that you cannot exceed the yeast tolerance and certainly by pitching an abundance of viable yeast you can exceed the maximum tolerance before the alcohol poisons the remaining population. The effect of high alcohol on the yeast is not immediate either, they will slowly die off as they lose the ability to expel the alcohol from their cells.

On your previous recipe you started at  1.118 and ended at 1.026, which gives you an apparent attenuation of 78%, certainly within the range of US-05. 

Several sources list the maximum alcohol tolerance of US-05 at 11% ABV, though I found one listing it as 12%.  I have found that some of the yeasts which come stock in BeerSmith have the maximum %ABV tolerance set lower than actual published values.  I have updated the data for the yeasts I use to match current published specs from the yeast companies I use, something that I wholly recommend others do as well since the specs do change or get updated over time.

In the end, you will get the readings and data that you get.  That is real life versus a computer simulation.  I always take the FG estimates with a grain of salt as there are so many different factors which can affect actual performance.  When I have a question on a high gravity recipe or new yeast, I conduct a forced fermentation test to determine the minimum FG I can expect from that wort/yeast combination.  I usually end up within a couple of points of that result.



Recycle your grains, feed them to a goat!

Offline monstervic

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2019, 08:41:03 AM »
There were issues brought up in the past since the program did not indicate that the yeast would not continue to ferment above the upper limit.  Brad responded by applying the maximum published alcohol tolerance as a safety net for those who brew much larger beers.  This is not to say that you cannot exceed the yeast tolerance and certainly by pitching an abundance of viable yeast you can exceed the maximum tolerance before the alcohol poisons the remaining population. The effect of high alcohol on the yeast is not immediate either, they will slowly die off as they lose the ability to expel the alcohol from their cells.

On your previous recipe you started at  1.118 and ended at 1.026, which gives you an apparent attenuation of 78%, certainly within the range of US-05. 

Several sources list the maximum alcohol tolerance of US-05 at 11% ABV, though I found one listing it as 12%.  I have found that some of the yeasts which come stock in BeerSmith have the maximum %ABV tolerance set lower than actual published values.  I have updated the data for the yeasts I use to match current published specs from the yeast companies I use, something that I wholly recommend others do as well since the specs do change or get updated over time.

In the end, you will get the readings and data that you get.  That is real life versus a computer simulation.  I always take the FG estimates with a grain of salt as there are so many different factors which can affect actual performance.  When I have a question on a high gravity recipe or new yeast, I conduct a forced fermentation test to determine the minimum FG I can expect from that wort/yeast combination.  I usually end up within a couple of points of that result.

Cheers, now that's giving more clear explanation, and sounds reasonable.

btw, Estimated FG is pretty precise usually for me with normal beers, so for me it's much more than just grain of salt :)

Thanks mate.


Online dtapke

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2019, 07:55:17 AM »
@oginme, My issue (which may be others issues) is still present in MS mobile, if i add a yeast over with a tolerance over 10% it will not save that yeast tolerance. I can only add a yeast in BS3 with a tolerance over 10%abv. it seems Bwestfall had the same issue.

granted, i have bot bs3 and bs mobile, so its not a big deal, however if one was only using bs mobile it could really hinder their abilities to create accurate recipes.
32g eHERMS
Drinking: Cassia Stout, Dopplebock,Cream ale,
Primary: Brut IPA
Next Brew: Brut V2

Online Oginme

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2019, 08:47:33 AM »
Unfortunately, I do not have the mobile version of BeerSmith to track it and figure out why.  Hopefully, someone with the app can chime in to elaborate if there is a better way to adjust the yeast tolerance.
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Online dtapke

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2019, 03:06:10 PM »
Yeah, it doesn't seem to matter what you do, I can add a yeast, call it an ale, champagne, lager, doesn't matter, i can input an alcohol tolerance whatever i want, and hit save. After saving it brings the tolerance back down to 10%
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Drinking: Cassia Stout, Dopplebock,Cream ale,
Primary: Brut IPA
Next Brew: Brut V2

Offline Kevin58

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Re: OG/FG issue
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2019, 09:39:53 AM »
This is why I use mobile as only a companion piece to the full version. Profiles, ingredients, recipes... all of it... are done on my full version while mobile version is only used for the convenience of being able to carry it around in the brew house.
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