Author Topic: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs  (Read 977 times)

Offline Toy4Rick

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Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« on: October 08, 2018, 08:35:08 PM »
Hello all,

I have read many posts about this and watched Brad's video on BS3 and the new whirlpool feature

Went into my equipment profile and made the 2 changes Brad suggested, check the Est Boil Hops in Whirlpool and set Total Whirlpool Time to 20
Then added Citra to a recipe, set the values in the hop addition to Whirlpool, 20 mins and 194 degrees with the AA at 12% and I get 51 additional IBUs where Brad's video indicates 12 IBUs

Here is why I ask.  I am doing a Galaxy SMASH, added 4oz of whirlpool at 175 degrees for 20 mins and it calculates an additional 28 IBUs. 

What am I doing wrong or not understanding?

Thanks, Rick
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:44:29 PM by Toy4Rick »

Offline BOB357

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 11:08:56 AM »
Did you reselect the equipment profile in the recipe after changing it? If you didn't, the changes weren't applied. Recipes are saved as brewed so you can reference the original without any changes to profiles after it was brewed.
Bob

Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 12:00:06 PM »
The big changes from how it operates from BS2 are the removal of the whirlpool/steep utilization factor from the settings and folding the hop utilization into the temperature of hop addition. 

As to the 'accuracy' of the IBU calculation, it is entirely a crap shoot.  I know that Brad has backing information to have modeled the IBU calculation from whirlpool hopping, but given that the original model is really only accurate for the equipment used when collecting the data.  [reference: https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/ibu-lie-kind and https://www.experimentalbrew.com/podcast/episode-32-ibu-lie]

Without testing on your specific process and beers, you really don't know how it relates to actual test results.  Further, the IBU test does not give you an accurate indication of bitterness perception.  Proof of this is a good NEIPA where the calculations may give you a high number but the actual perceived bitterness is no where near what you would expect from that IBU number (and actual results if the brewers I have talked to are correct).

So, my recommendation is to base your values on bitterness perception.  In my case, I brewed an American wheat beer using only whirlpool hopping with each batch containing the same amount and lot of hops each added at a different time and temperature.  I compared this to my expectation of bitterness based upon several commercial beers ranging from low IBU to medium IBU to peg where I perceived the bitterness to fall in my process.

Using this as a rough guide, I space my addition of whirlpool hops based upon the time of the hop additions from flame out.  I can relate the time of addition to the standard cooling rate of my kettle.  I then assign the whirlpool temperature based upon the IBU contribution that correlates to my perception of bitterness at that addition time.  It is not perfect, but it seems to work OK for my process.

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Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 07:36:03 PM »
Hey Bob,

Yes, I re-applied the equipment profile after making the changes :)

Oginme, not sure how equipment profile or process comes into play here.  Hops at a certain temp for a determined amount of time should yield X.  I know this is a way over simplified but Brads 12 IBUs to my 51 for the same hop, temp and time just doesn't make sense to me

Based on what I have read, if I steep at 175 (and declining) for 20 mins, I really shouldn't be adding hardly any IBUs.   The issue is, when looking at a recipe 6 months from now and it says 112 and much of that comes from whirlpool hops, what should I use to make adjustments either up or down.

Seems like I am missing something here
Rick

Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 06:00:55 AM »
Hey Bob,

Yes, I re-applied the equipment profile after making the changes :)

Oginme, not sure how equipment profile or process comes into play here.  Hops at a certain temp for a determined amount of time should yield X.  I know this is a way over simplified but Brads 12 IBUs to my 51 for the same hop, temp and time just doesn't make sense to me

Based on what I have read, if I steep at 175 (and declining) for 20 mins, I really shouldn't be adding hardly any IBUs.   The issue is, when looking at a recipe 6 months from now and it says 112 and much of that comes from whirlpool hops, what should I use to make adjustments either up or down.

Seems like I am missing something here
Rick

Not sure where you got equipment profile from my post.

If only it were that simple that 'x' amount of hops at 'y' temp will give you a known amount of bitterness.  There are so many more factors that lead to the perception of bitterness in beer:  is the temperature steady or decreasing? how fast is the temperature dropping?  what is the gravity of the wort?  How much of the boil hop alpha acids are still in the wort?  how much has already been isomerized?  what is the surface area of the kettle?  is the wort being actually whirlpooled or are you just steeping?  If being whirlpooled, how fast is the surface being turned over?   what level of Sulfate is in the water?  how much Chloride?  alpha acid ratio of humulone to cohumulone in the hops used.

You can also get bitterness perception from oxidation of beta acids and dry hopping.

So to answer your question, in the design page each hop addition gives an estimated IBU number for that addition.  If the beer comes out too bitter then you can lower the boil hops; if too much hop flavor, lower the whirlpool additions.  It comes down to your perception (aroma, flavor, taste) of the beer itself and your expectations when designing that beer.  We tend to get too hung up on the numbers and not the actual perceptions.
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Offline Toy4Rick

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 09:01:55 PM »
Thanks Oginme for the detailed response.

Yes, my formula was was over simplified, which I indicated.  It just seems that my whirlpool hop IBUs were so drastically different than in the video that must be missing something.

I'll work on perceived bitterness rather than straight numbers.  It's just hard when a commercial beer includes IBUs and we are trying to get close

Thanks again
Rick

Offline smik

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2019, 12:08:08 PM »
Hello all,

I have a related question to this - it's possibly been answered in another post - please (if so) - push me that way.

When performing a whirlpool hop stand, will BS3 calculate the extra time (lets say 30 minutes at 165F - and dropping slowly) to the ORIGINAL beginning boils hops that may have been added at time 0?  (forget the whirlpool hops at this point)

The way I see it, you're getting an extra 30 minutes at 165F added to your 60 minutes of boiling.  It probably doesn't add a whole bunch in terms of bitterness - but I just need to know if I should take this into account when constructing recipes and evaluating final hop IBUs for a particular recipe.

Thanks!

Offline Oginme

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2019, 12:52:07 PM »
The additional calculated IBU from boil hops in the whirlpool/steeping phase is controlled by the settings in the equipment profile.  In your equipment profile under the 'hop utilization and whirlpool options' section is a box to enter a standard whirlpool time and a check box indicating you want the program to extend the bitterness calculation of boil hops into the whirlpool. 

The thing to note is that once you set the whirlpool time, the program automatically assumes that time for all recipes.  I set it to my standard timing for sampling, measurements, and moving the kettle to the water source for immersion chilling.  If I want to extend that for longer whirlpool times, I make that adjustment within the recipe so that it does not affect the profile in my library and only is applicable to the recipe in which I have made that change.

Once you set these in your standard equipment profile, remember that BeerSmith treats each recipe as a self-contained archive so you will need to update your recipes where you want this change to take affect with the new equipment profile.
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Offline smik

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Re: Whirlpool and Hop IBUs
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2019, 10:56:20 AM »
Perfect - Thanks Oginme!!