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Mash-in step temperature is too high

SkyFlyer

Grandmaster Brewer
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
106
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0
Location
Astoria, Or. USA
Hello all ...

I'm having a problem with my brew sessions, and this is it.
When I add the water for the mash in, the resulting step temperature is always too high.

Some info ...
Recipe is attached.
All grain recipe.
Mill the grain on the Barley Crusher.  I keep it adjusted.
Basement temp is 60-65F.
17.6gal insulated cooler for a mash tun.
15gal keg for a keggle.
Anything else that I might pass along?

According to the recipe, I should add 8.75g of water at 167.7F.
After stirring and waiting a 5-10 min, the mash temp is at least 160F, usually a little higher.  As I see it, according to the recipe, the step temp should be around 154F.
I usually have to add some cold water to bring it down and/or leave the cooler lid open.

I would appreciate any thoughts on why this might be happening.
Check the recipe out and help me understand what I might be doing wrong.

I have been brewing for a while, but admit I am a beginner in understanding the complexities of BeerSmith.  It is a great program!  Lots to learn yet! 
I think I have the equipment profile set up right or close.

This has been happening in my last batches.
I've heard it many times though, it is hard to really mess up a batch of beer.  It is true!
My IPA's (and other styles) have been coming out very good.
I'm not going to change much, but am curious as to why the step temp problem is happening.
Maybe there is some simple tweak to my recipe or equipment.
Ask me some questions, I hope I can answer them.
Thanks for listening ...

Bob in Astoria, Or.
8)

 
SkyFlyer said:
Hello all ...

I'm having a problem with my brew sessions, and this is it.
When I add the water for the mash in, the resulting step temperature is always too high.

Some info ...
Recipe is attached.
All grain recipe.
Mill the grain on the Barley Crusher.  I keep it adjusted.
Basement temp is 60-65F.
17.6gal insulated cooler for a mash tun.
15gal keg for a keggle.
Anything else that I might pass along?

According to the recipe, I should add 8.75g of water at 167.7F.
After stirring and waiting a 5-10 min, the mash temp is at least 160F, usually a little higher.  As I see it, according to the recipe, the step temp should be around 154F.
I usually have to add some cold water to bring it down and/or leave the cooler lid open.

I would appreciate any thoughts on why this might be happening.
Check the recipe out and help me understand what I might be doing wrong.

I have been brewing for a while, but admit I am a beginner in understanding the complexities of BeerSmith.  It is a great program!  Lots to learn yet! 
I think I have the equipment profile set up right or close.

This has been happening in my last batches.
I've heard it many times though, it is hard to really mess up a batch of beer.  It is true!
My IPA's (and other styles) have been coming out very good.
I'm not going to change much, but am curious as to why the step temp problem is happening.

Maybe there is some simple tweak to my recipe or equipment.
Ask me some questions, I hope I can answer them.
Thanks for listening ...

Bob in Astoria, Or.
8)

After you add your water you want it to sit at 158 or so any higher and it might stop the conversion
 
Not sure I understand your response.

Are you saying if the temperature is any higher, it will stop conversion?
If that is what you are saying, that is what I am concerned about.
I am trying to figure out why it isn't around 154F or thereabouts.
As I understand it, the range should be around 150F to 158F for light to medium to full. 
Is that correct?
I want this IPA to be a medium body.
Thanks
Bob
 
SkyFlyer said:
Not sure I understand your response.

Are you saying if the temperature is any higher, it will stop conversion?
If that is what you are saying, that is what I am concerned about.
I am trying to figure out why it isn't around 154F or thereabouts.
As I understand it, the range should be around 150F to 158F for light to medium to full. 
Is that correct?
I want this IPA to be a medium body.
Thanks
Bob

The water you add needs to be hotter than you need as the grains are going to cool it down, but after they cool it down you want to sit for 1 hour at about 158 degrees to get maximum extract yield and make sure your PH ends up around 5.2-5.6 or you might get poor extract yields.
 
If you're unsure about your equipment profile, here's a video that does a great job of explaining how to set it up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmW7pwQP5mQ

Next, be sure to set the grain temperature and mash tun temperature in the mash window on the design page of your recipe. Accuracy in your grain weight and strike water volume is important as well. Don't trust the markings on kettles, mash tuns or fermenters. Many times they aren't very accurate. Also, keep in mind that your strike water temperature may increase after you shut off the heat source. Lastly, be sure to stir well when you dough in and take several temperature readings in different areas of the mash.

Taking care of these things should get you within 1 or 2 degrees of your desired mash temperature.
 
BOB357 said:
be sure to set the grain temperature and mash tun temperature in the mash window on the design page of your recipe.
+1
also look for the information on your mash tun in the equipment profile.  You've got the mass in lbs and specific heat to play with.  Additionally, you've got something like "rise time" (sorry I forget what exactly it's called if it's not that) which I believe is effectively how long it takes you to get water and grains mixed.  I'm thinking BS is overshooting how much temp you lose during the fill, so your specific heat and/or mass could bump up while the rise time drops to a quicker mix.

As bob mentions, you could increase your grain and/or mash temps too.

Big picture, of course you're better off on this side of the line and adding water/ice cubes as needed to drop the temp.  If you get this done quickly you shouldn't run into the issues Ck brings up.  This is normal workflow on my brew day.
 
Thanks for the informative answers.
I believe I have most of the settings correct , grain temp, etc.
It does not hurt to go over everything again.

CK27
but after they cool it down you want to sit for 1 hour at about 158 degrees to get maximum extract yield

Why did you mention 158F?  My recipe says 154F for the step temp.  Is the step temp what you are referring to?
I am doing my mash about an hour.  If 158F is what I want, then I am close.

Another issue I need to deal with is thermometers. 
I have one in the hot water and one in the mash tun.  Two different types of thermometers.
I need to check to make sure they are both accurate (ice bath or boiling temp).
I need to consider a digital thermometer with a probe.

Thanks again,
Bob
 
SkyFlyer said:
CK27
but after they cool it down you want to sit for 1 hour at about 158 degrees to get maximum extract yield

Why did you mention 158F?  My recipe says 154F for the step temp.  Is the step temp what you are referring to?
I am doing my mash about an hour.  If 158F is what I want, then I am close.

I believe CK is attempting to educate you on general mash temp rules of thumb.  My suggestion is to stick with the mash temp listed in the recipe.  Generally speaking, a lower mash temp leads to more fermentation and a thinner mouthfeel/body.  A higher mash temp leads to a thicker mouthfeel/body.

Personally, most batches I brew are mashed at 152 degrees, which lines up with Beersmith's "medium body" profile.  I've never brewed one as high as 158.
 
jtoots said:
SkyFlyer said:
CK27
but after they cool it down you want to sit for 1 hour at about 158 degrees to get maximum extract yield

Why did you mention 158F?  My recipe says 154F for the step temp.  Is the step temp what you are referring to?
I am doing my mash about an hour.  If 158F is what I want, then I am close.

I believe CK is attempting to educate you on general mash temp rules of thumb.  My suggestion is to stick with the mash temp listed in the recipe.  Generally speaking, a lower mash temp leads to more fermentation and a thinner mouthfeel/body.  A higher mash temp leads to a thicker mouthfeel/body.

Personally, most batches I brew are mashed at 152 degrees, which lines up with Beersmith's "medium body" profile.  I've never brewed one as high as 158.

He wanted body to the beer so that's why I said 158 I brew much more than most people heck I brew almost as much as a microbrewery and I usually mash at 158F but I do mash in the 140's from time to time. I generally get better beers at 158 as compared to 152 and yeah I was educating him on standard mashing practices.
 
Ck27 said:
He wanted body to the beer so that's why I said 158 I brew much more than most people heck I brew almost as much as a microbrewery and I usually mash at 158F but I do mash in the 140's from time to time. I generally get better beers at 158 as compared to 152 and yeah I was educating him on standard mashing practices.

Thought so, wasn't trying to speak for ya there. 

Cheers gents!!
 
So  ....
I've had a little education here and now know a few things that I can try.
Need to work on my thermometers.
Continue to tweak my profiles in BS.
Thanks for all the input.

Bob    8)
 
SkyFlyer said:
So  ....
I've had a little education here and now know a few things that I can try.
Need to work on my thermometers.
Continue to tweak my profiles in BS.
Thanks for all the input.

Bob    8)

Yep, what kind of thermometer are you using?? I tend to prefer digital ones, as compared to the metal ones they always read 2-4 degrees cooler of hotter.
 
If you mash on the edges of the activity zone for the amylase enzymes ( mid-140's or high 150's to low 160's), you really want to make sure that your thermometer is well calibrated.  You can check calibration with an ice bath for 32F and boiling distilled water for 212F.  This may vary a little bit depending upon your elevation.

I've mashed at 158F+ several times to add body to my milds and Scottish light beers.  The thing to remember at this range is that the enzymes will denature (unravel and not work) fairly quickly.  If you can handle it a finer crush is very helpful to get faster conversion in the short time that you have.  Thicker initial infusion mash also helps preserve some of the body. 

If you are looking for a medium body, consider the mid range of 152F to 154F. 

Now, your original issue is that when you add water at the calculated strike temperature, you end up with high mash temperatures.  Here you want to check several things.  First, make sure that the weight and specific heat for your mash tun is properly set in your equipment profile.  BeerSmith uses this to calculate how much thermal mass must be raised from your set temperature to your target mash temperature.  If these are not correct, then the program will not give you an accurate strike temp.

Next, on the mash tab, do you have the strike temperature set so that it "adjust temp for equipment"?  If so, then you need to make sure that the equipment temperature on the mash tab matches the ambient temperature where you have you mash tun. 

You also need the grain temperature on the mash tab set to the temperature of the crushed grain, as this will make a difference.  I usually store my grain for the current brew in my garage and bring it inside where I do most of my brewing shortly after starting to heat up my kettle.  I stick  thermometer into the crushed grain and update BeerSmith with the reading after allowing it to sit for about 4 to 5 minutes.

With all this, you may still find yourself a little off.  You can adjust the specific heat in your equipment profile to get the program calculation to match your actual results and save that profile for use in the future.

 
Thanks Oginme for your response.
Indeed, I need to calibrate my thermometers.
I guess I'll have to do a trial and error on the specific heat of the mash tun.  I currently have it set to 0.3 which is for a plastic cooler.  The note says that a higher number will result in higher infusion temps.
So, maybe I need to drop that number down a point or two.  In fact, I will drop it to 0.25 from 0.3 for the next batch and see how that works.

About the "adjust temp for equipment" ...
I DO NOT have it set.  The mash tun is at room temp prior to starting the brew.  I do set the grain temp in the mash profile based on the basement temp, as that is where the grain is stored prior to the brew.
I don't know, is it recommended that you check that box and have BS adjust for equipment?  Not sure how that works.  If it is checked, how does BS know what the temp of the mash tun is?  Is that where the specific heat of the mash tun comes into play?  I will need to read up on BS Help to see how that works.
The only temp for the brew environment that I set, is the temp of the grain (I think).  I don't believe I set the room temp anywhere in the profiles.  So, does BS use the grain temp to base everything off of?
For the time being, I will leave it unchecked.

You guys have been a great help.  I still have a ways to go to figure this out, but that is part of the process. 
Meanwhile, my beer is pretty tasty, so I feel that I really don't need to change a lot.

Thanks again
Bob
8)
 
I agree with Oginme. I always check my analog temp probes with a calibration thermometer. I have a glass one that is similar to this: https://www.amazon.com/General-Purpose-Thermometer-Immersion-B60800-3000/dp/B00551N8Q2/ref=sr_1_10?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1510599345&sr=1-10&keywords=calibration+thermometer

It very very important that you mash within your planned ranges especially if you're doing different mash profiles for specific kinds of beers. I use the calibration thermometer to in my crushed grain to be sure I have the exact temp.
 
SkyFlyer said:
Thanks Oginme for your response.
Indeed, I need to calibrate my thermometers.
I guess I'll have to do a trial and error on the specific heat of the mash tun.  I currently have it set to 0.3 which is for a plastic cooler.  The note says that a higher number will result in higher infusion temps.
So, maybe I need to drop that number down a point or two.  In fact, I will drop it to 0.25 from 0.3 for the next batch and see how that works.

About the "adjust temp for equipment" ...
I DO NOT have it set.  The mash tun is at room temp prior to starting the brew.  I do set the grain temp in the mash profile based on the basement temp, as that is where the grain is stored prior to the brew.
I don't know, is it recommended that you check that box and have BS adjust for equipment?  Not sure how that works.  If it is checked, how does BS know what the temp of the mash tun is?  Is that where the specific heat of the mash tun comes into play?  I will need to read up on BS Help to see how that works.
The only temp for the brew environment that I set, is the temp of the grain (I think).  I don't believe I set the room temp anywhere in the profiles.  So, does BS use the grain temp to base everything off of?
For the time being, I will leave it unchecked.

You guys have been a great help.  I still have a ways to go to figure this out, but that is part of the process. 
Meanwhile, my beer is pretty tasty, so I feel that I really don't need to change a lot.

Thanks again
Bob
8)

Bob,

You can set the actual temperature of your equipment and grains on the mash tab.  I also store my grains in my basement (actually my sauna) where the temperatures are cool and it is dry.  When I grind the grains and bring them up, there can be more than a few degrees difference between the temperature the basement and grains are at versus the temperature I have in my equipment profile. While the equipment profile reflects you average or preset temperatures, the inputs on the mash tab allow you to update these values for your current conditions without having to edit the equipment profile each and every time.

If you do not have the 'adjust temp for equipment' checked then the temperature calculated for strike water will only take into account the thermal mass of the grains from your set temperature to the mash temperature.  If your mash tun is at ambient temperatures, you will always undershoot the mash temperature, because the thermal energy needed to bring the mash tun from ambient temperatures up to the mash temperature will NOT be included in the strike temperature calculation.

 
I've had the same problem mostly because of my process and also because equipment profiles are complicated and to be accurate takes a lot of work on my specific gear.  So, knowing the grain temp is all I really need to use to adjust the strike temp for a desired mash temp.  I've basically zeroed out things that alters my strike temp in the equipment profile.

My process is to manually move water via a measuring cup to my mashtun though sometimes I pump it but that goes through a plate chiller and loses a lot of heat.  Manually, I lose around 15F.  Neither of these methods are always off by the same temp so instead I get my strike water in my mashtun, adjust the temp there if needed then add my grain.  If the mash temp is off then my grain temp was not what I punched into Beersmith.

I do have several thermometers and usually have several different readings.  Depending on where in my mashtun I measure, I have different readings.    So, I picked up an inexpensive instal digital and go with that.  It seems to be fine.
 
You will want to create custom mash profiles in Beersmith. The profiles that come with the profile are at best examples. Your mash tun will, without a doubt, behave differently than the default profiles. It is also necessary to take the temperature of your grain before mashing.

Personally, I have created six different mash profiles designed for the different temperatures I choose to mash with and name them thus:
01 Light Body (148*)
02 Light/Medium Body (150*)
03 Medium Body (152*)
04 Medium/Full Body (154*)
05 Full Body (156*)
06 Very Full Body (158*)

Those are for my batch sparge process... I have six more set up for my BIAB process.

Here is one of the tutorials I used to set those up along with my equipment profiles...
https://youtu.be/CZ0TFtMnzxs
 
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