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My first all grain - haze

S

Sparr0w

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Oct 8, 2017
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Location
Manchester, UK
So I'm new to all grain, after lots on lots of reading, and armed with the attitude of 'we learn by doing', and my ingredients I jumped in...
mashed 6k grain at 64.4 (or as damn close as I could get) with 15.5L of water and steeped for 75 mins
I then stupidly squeezed the bag, after I sparged using the bag of grain to filter. why, I don't know, I wasn't thinking straight and it was my first time
I boiled for 70 mins adding hop leaves and Irish moss along the way.
after I transferred to my bin to cool. (left it to cool over night) I notice it wasn't clear, there was a haze, I expected it was dust from the grain.
after the fermentation finished, it was still hazy. when pour it it looks and resembles a wheat beer. tastes and smells fin, I even get a head when pulled.
what do you guys think, I know I've left out details, but everything else went to plan apart from that.
looking for haze problems, I've read starch or proteins could be the problem, but again I'm reading, I need practical experience and advice.

thanks for reading

*I have a cooling method planned for my next time.
 
Sparr0w said:
So I'm new to all grain, after lots on lots of reading, and armed with the attitude of 'we learn by doing', and my ingredients I jumped in...
mashed 6k grain at 64.4 (or as damn close as I could get) with 15.5L of water and steeped for 75 mins
I then stupidly squeezed the bag, after I sparged using the bag of grain to filter. why, I don't know, I wasn't thinking straight and it was my first time
I boiled for 70 mins adding hop leaves and Irish moss along the way.
after I transferred to my bin to cool. (left it to cool over night) I notice it wasn't clear, there was a haze, I expected it was dust from the grain.
after the fermentation finished, it was still hazy. when pour it it looks and resembles a wheat beer. tastes and smells fin, I even get a head when pulled.
what do you guys think, I know I've left out details, but everything else went to plan apart from that.
looking for haze problems, I've read starch or proteins could be the problem, but again I'm reading, I need practical experience and advice.

thanks for reading

*I have a cooling method planned for my next time.
Click to expand...

Skip the "cooling method" and use whirlfoc tablets during last 10 minutes of boil or Irish moss. That will drop all proteins and whatnot and make the beer clear.
 
First, squeezing the bag to get all the wort out you can is not a problem and is not a direct cause of haze.  As CK27 suggested, addition of a clarifying agent (I use Irish Moss) at 10 to 15 minutes left in the boil helps greatly.  While allowing the wort to cool down is not an issue, you don't get a strong "cold break" of the proteins which will bring the fines together to settle to the bottom of the kettle/container.  That said, the 'no-chill' method has been used successfully by many, especially in Australia where it was developed.

I also rely on a "cold crash" after reaching final gravity.  I bring my carboys down to below 40F (4C) for a couple of days to force flocculate and bring down excess yeast in the beer.  I know that some people use gelatin just before the cold crash to further clarify their beer. 

Lastly, if you bottle like I do then holding the bottles, once carbonated, at a cold temperature for a week or two will also help in clarifying your beer.

As I write this, it also occurs to me that you might have a chill haze.  Does your beer clear up in the glass as the beer warms?  If this is the case, then the cold crash would help to remedy this.
 
I don't personally use any clarifying agent and find that it takes at least 2-3 weeks at cold temps for most beers to clear.
 
in reply to the first ck27 an oginme, I did use Irish moss. its not chill haze the best I can describe, it looks like a wheat beer, it doesn't clear even when drinking, which, it tastes okay, nobody was ill which is a bonus. haha.
is it unusual for the wart to look hazy after the boil and you've cooled ready to add the yeast. having mostly used malt from cans the beer is always bright just before fermenting, and when bottling its as clear as a bell. This is the first time I've experienced this and I'm keen on it never happening ever again.


 
Sparr0w said:
in reply to the first ck27 an oginme, I did use Irish moss. its not chill haze the best I can describe, it looks like a wheat beer, it doesn't clear even when drinking, which, it tastes okay, nobody was ill which is a bonus. haha.
is it unusual for the wart to look hazy after the boil and you've cooled ready to add the yeast. having mostly used malt from cans the beer is always bright just before fermenting, and when bottling its as clear as a bell. This is the first time I've experienced this and I'm keen on it never happening ever again.
Click to expand...

What was your grain bill??? Maybe you used something that caused it.
 
Ck27 said:
What was your grain bill??? Maybe you used something that caused it.
Click to expand...

6Kg pale malt. maris otter. So i'm guessing its not as simple as an obvious mistake I made then?
 
Sparr0w said:
Ck27 said:
What was your grain bill??? Maybe you used something that caused it.
Click to expand...

6Kg pale malt. maris otter. So i'm guessing its not as simple as an obvious mistake I made then?
Click to expand...

Hmm, Maris doesn't have any protein really it's a extremely low protein malt and shouldn't be hazy. It sounds like possibly you might not have gotten a good conversion what temp did you mash at and for how long??
 
Ck27 said:
Sparr0w said:
Ck27 said:
What was your grain bill??? Maybe you used something that caused it.
Click to expand...

6Kg pale malt. maris otter. So i'm guessing its not as simple as an obvious mistake I made then?
Click to expand...

Hmm, Maris doesn't have any protein really it's a extremely low protein malt and shouldn't be hazy. It sounds like possibly you might not have gotten a good conversion what temp did you mash at and for how long??
Click to expand...

okay heres what I recorded.
added 17ltr water at 73.5c. mash was at 68c to start, it dropped to 65c by the end of 60 mins. Sparged then boiled.
 
Sparr0w said:
Ck27 said:
Sparr0w said:
Ck27 said:
What was your grain bill??? Maybe you used something that caused it.
Click to expand...

6Kg pale malt. maris otter. So i'm guessing its not as simple as an obvious mistake I made then?
Click to expand...

Hmm, Maris doesn't have any protein really it's a extremely low protein malt and shouldn't be hazy. It sounds like possibly you might not have gotten a good conversion what temp did you mash at and for how long??
Click to expand...

okay heres what I recorded.
added 17ltr water at 73.5c. mash was at 68c to start, it dropped to 65c by the end of 60 mins. Sparged then boiled.
Click to expand...

Very strange j would do a iodine test for conversion next time and see whats all going on
 
As Oginme said, squeezing the bag and no chill are practiced by many without a problem. One of the biggest problems I found causing clarity issues was insufficient calcium making it through the mash to the boil. I build my water from RO and had no clarity problems when I batch sparged, but did when brewing the same recipes with the BIAB method.

Since my process was the same after the mash I pretty much figured the problem had to be pre-boil related. The only significant difference I could see was the water/grain ratio. (I do a full volume mash and was calculating water additions the same as always.) Knowing that others weren't having the same problem I turned to water composition. I had read somewhere that some of the minerals in the mash water didn't make it to the boil, so that was a good starting point, especially knowing the importance of calcium to clarity among other things.

I looked at the total amount of calcium for my full volume of water for BIAB and then at the amount when I added up the mash and boil additions for batch sparging and found that, according to water calculators, I was using almost 1/3 more total calcium when batch sparging. Instead of calculating for the full volume I began adding together the total additions I would have used if batch sparging.
Problem solved. Now I just target 100ppm calcium for BIAB full volume.

Not necessarily suggesting that insufficient calcium is your problem, but that your water may very well be. Mash pH is also a consideration and may be quite different due to the water/grain ratio, even when brewing the same recipe. I believe it was Chris Colby who suggested that if you don't see indications of a good hot break, add a tsp. of calcium chloride or gypsum to the boil. Something that simple could solve your problem.

Water is of much less concern when doing extract brews. Some brewers are lucky enough to have great brewing water right out of the tap while others are not. Whether or not water is causing your clarity issue, it helps to know what your water is like.

Happy brewing!

Bob




 
BOB357 said:
As Oginme said, squeezing the bag and no chill are practiced by many without a problem. One of the biggest problems I found causing clarity issues was insufficient calcium making it through the mash to the boil. I build my water from RO and had no clarity problems when I batch sparged, but did when brewing the same recipes with the BIAB method.

Since my process was the same after the mash I pretty much figured the problem had to be pre-boil related. The only significant difference I could see was the water/grain ratio. (I do a full volume mash and was calculating water additions the same as always.) Knowing that others weren't having the same problem I turned to water composition. I had read somewhere that some of the minerals in the mash water didn't make it to the boil, so that was a good starting point, especially knowing the importance of calcium to clarity among other things.

I looked at the total amount of calcium for my full volume of water for BIAB and then at the amount when I added up the mash and boil additions for batch sparging and found that, according to water calculators, I was using almost 1/3 more total calcium when batch sparging. Instead of calculating for the full volume I began adding together the total additions I would have used if batch sparging.
Problem solved. Now I just target 100ppm calcium for BIAB full volume.

Not necessarily suggesting that insufficient calcium is your problem, but that your water may very well be. Mash pH is also a consideration and may be quite different due to the water/grain ratio, even when brewing the same recipe. I believe it was Chris Colby who suggested that if you don't see indications of a good hot break, add a tsp. of calcium chloride or gypsum to the boil. Something that simple could solve your problem.

Water is of much less concern when doing extract brews. Some brewers are lucky enough to have great brewing water right out of the tap while others are not. Whether or not water is causing your clarity issue, it helps to know what your water is like.

Happy brewing!

Bob
Click to expand...

All valid points my PH out of faucet is 7.3 and it ends up after mash at 5.2 so it works out just fine if it does get stuck I use lactic to bring it down a wee bit. Not enough to add flavor
 
thanks for the replies. I'm going to look at my PH, I don't know what it is as id never had any problems before, but working through each variable is wise at this point. so, I've ordered some litmus paper and I'm going to work that way. I will update as I go along.
 
Here's any easy solution to your haze issue: close your eyes when you drink it. More seriously, you probably have bigger things to deal with when going all grain and I would say you should work on those first, then worry about the haze later. Hitting your temperatures, volumes and gravities are much more important overall. RDWHAHHB (Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Hazy Home Brew).

--GF
 
GigaFemto said:
Here's any easy solution to your haze issue: close your eyes when you drink it. More seriously, you probably have bigger things to deal with when going all grain and I would say you should work on those first, then worry about the haze later. Hitting your temperatures, volumes and gravities are much more important overall. RDWHAHHB (Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Hazy Home Brew).

--GF
Click to expand...

+1 clear beer is overrated!  Cheers!
 
GigaFemto said:
Here's any easy solution to your haze issue: close your eyes when you drink it. More seriously, you probably have bigger things to deal with when going all grain and I would say you should work on those first, then worry about the haze later. Hitting your temperatures, volumes and gravities are much more important overall. RDWHAHHB (Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Hazy Home Brew).

--GF
Click to expand...

I get that, and we certainly haven't flushed it down the drain, we enjoyed it. not as hoppy as we hopped for, and maybe thats to do with my water too, so it is something tied in.
After reading and taking advice,  I'm currently accusing my PH and Calcium in my water. I feel like I'm back at school with Mr Brown over my shoulder.  ;D
 
jtoots said:
GigaFemto said:
Here's any easy solution to your haze issue: close your eyes when you drink it. More seriously, you probably have bigger things to deal with when going all grain and I would say you should work on those first, then worry about the haze later. Hitting your temperatures, volumes and gravities are much more important overall. RDWHAHHB (Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Hazy Home Brew).

--GF
Click to expand...

+1 clear beer is overrated!  Cheers!
Click to expand...

No
 
Ck27 said:
jtoots said:
GigaFemto said:
Here's any easy solution to your haze issue: close your eyes when you drink it. More seriously, you probably have bigger things to deal with when going all grain and I would say you should work on those first, then worry about the haze later. Hitting your temperatures, volumes and gravities are much more important overall. RDWHAHHB (Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Hazy Home Brew).

--GF
Click to expand...

+1 clear beer is overrated!  Cheers!
Click to expand...

No
Click to expand...
Yes?
 
jtoots said:
Ck27 said:
jtoots said:
GigaFemto said:
Here's any easy solution to your haze issue: close your eyes when you drink it. More seriously, you probably have bigger things to deal with when going all grain and I would say you should work on those first, then worry about the haze later. Hitting your temperatures, volumes and gravities are much more important overall. RDWHAHHB (Relax, Don't Worry, Have A Hazy Home Brew).

--GF
Click to expand...

+1 clear beer is overrated!  Cheers!
Click to expand...

No
Click to expand...
Yes?
Click to expand...

If a beer isn't required to be hazy as per style I brew it clear :) much nicer to look at a beer you can see through !!!!
 
There's some details about your process you left out and might be important to help you figure what, if anything you did wrong.
What was your grain bill?
What was your mash temp?
Did you check for starch conversion at the end of the mash?
Did you have a good rolling boil and not just a simmer?
How long did you let it ferment for and what was the FG?
Did you add a clarifying agent at the end of fermentation?

I like clear beers myself so I know how you feel.
A 
 
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