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BeerSmith Don't Agree! Extract to All-Grain Conversion

Westies

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I've used the following recipe as a base for a Grapefuit IPA for the past few years now: https://www.jaysbrewing.com/2012/11/01/great-ipa-recipe-for-those-that-dont-like-ipas/
I'd like to convert it to All-Grain by building the extract recipe in BeerSmith and using the convert feature.

With minimal variations in the ingredients (due to availability at my LHBS) I've achieved pretty much the exact same OG & FG as stated on the website - 1.064 & 1.013, respectively.

This leads me to believe that if I build the extract recipe identically in BeerSmith, the calculated OG should be the same... then I can move on to converting to All-Grain.

BeerSmith calculates OG of 1.051 vs. the recipe/confirmed brewed OG of 1.063/1.064ish.

Any suggestions on why BeerSmith will not line up?

Equipment profile set to Pot and Cooler (5 Gal/19 L) - Extract/Partial Mash
which is what I use at home.

Recipe screenshot attached.
 

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It would be helpful if you exported the whole recipe and posted it so we can see equipment profiles, volumes, etc. Since the pre-boil volume is less than 5 gallons, I assume you are topping up in the fermenter. Also, the stock equipment profile you referenced has a trub loss built in. If you do a partial boil with trub loss you will be leaving behind extra-concentrated wort, and that can knock several points off the gravity of what makes it into the fermenter. Reading Jay's Brewing Blog implies that he uses the whole boil with no trub loss.  He says "you are just doing a partial boil and then going to cool it down, fill it up to 5 gallons and pitch your yeast". That difference  could be the source of BeerSmith's lower gravity estimate, but I would need more information to be sure.

-GF
 
Did I miss something or does the recipe on Jay's blog use only 2.5 gallons of water.   
 
jomebrew said:
Did I miss something or does the recipe on Jay's blog use only 2.5 gallons of water. 

Yes, and it does not give a batch size for what finally made it to the fermenter.  In a case like this, I usually enter the grain bill as it is printed and then use the sliders below the ingredients window to bring the gravity, IBU and SRM in line with the published recipe. 
 
GigaFemto said:
Reading Jay's Brewing Blog implies that he uses the whole boil with no trub loss.  He says "you are just doing a partial boil and then going to cool it down, fill it up to 5 gallons and pitch your yeast". That difference  could be the source of BeerSmith's lower gravity estimate, but I would need more information to be sure.
Great catch. This is something I missed. I honestly have never poured the full contents of a partial boil kettle into the fermenter, as I assumed the trub in the boil would not be desirable for the brew and this is why I didn't even consider this as a source of the OG difference. The thing I'm learning as more brews go by is that it all depends what you're trying to do, and if you're following a recipe you do what the recipe says! :)

Oginme said:
In a case like this, I usually enter the grain bill as it is printed and then use the sliders below the ingredients window to bring the gravity, IBU and SRM in line with the published recipe.
I am new to BeerSmith and this is one of the first recipes I am building with it. I really appreciate the insight into this feature of the program!
 
So I'm starting from scratch in BeerSmith, rebuilt the recipe, and made a new equipment profile.

New equipment profile is a 5 gallon pot, boil volume 2.5 gal, boil-off 0.5 gal, top-off water 3 gal to bring it to a 5 gallon batch, 0 loss to trub/chiller.

The OG has jumped up to 1.058 now (from 1.051 before), but still not quite 1.063.
 
One of the ways the 1.058 was achieved was by setting the Light Dry Extract "Potential SG" to 1.046 from 1.044. This bumped the OG up from 1.055.

Looking forward toward another issue: the IBUs. This should be entirely determined by the hops that get added during the boil. IBUs are way down at 23.1 from the Jay's Brewing recipe stated value of 45. I don't see any way I could double the IBUs with the same amount of hops just by tweaking something in BeerSmith... any ideas here?
 
Are increaseing your hops to match your volume . He's only making a 2 gallon batch yours appears to be 5 gal, if your topping it off with 3 gal.
 
Westies said:
One of the ways the 1.058 was achieved was by setting the Light Dry Extract "Potential SG" to 1.046 from 1.044. This bumped the OG up from 1.055.

Looking forward toward another issue: the IBUs. This should be entirely determined by the hops that get added during the boil. IBUs are way down at 23.1 from the Jay's Brewing recipe stated value of 45. I don't see any way I could double the IBUs with the same amount of hops just by tweaking something in BeerSmith... any ideas here?

Unless you are increasing the extract potential due to information from a data sheet for the extract, you will be sorely disappointed by this change.  Typical extract is very well managed to be from 1.042 to 1.044 (depending upon manufacturer) in potential.  It will be frustrating to you in the end to be adjusting these numbers and then left wondering why you are falling short when you actually brew this recipe.  Given as others have pointed out the potential difference in batch size and the lack of good information in the printed recipe, you are best served by adjusting the gravity by using the slider as I suggested earlier and not by altering the specifications for the ingredients to get a prediction you can never match in brewing.  BTW, 1.046 is the potential for straight dextrose sugar, which malt extract is definitely not.


From the hops, again there is a lack of information in the recipe you have found.  There are 3 basic models that most people use for predicting IBU and they all give differing results.  The published recipe does not state if the IBU prediction is Tinseth, Garetz, or Rager.  There are some other bitterness calculations out there as well, but these are the main three being used and each one of them can be accessed within BeerSmith.  If you used the slider to increase the OG to the target for the recipe, you can do the same thing for the bitterness.  With the lack of other information, I would recommend using this if you want to bring the bitterness up to the printed target.

Any approach by altering the characteristics of your ingredients without a spec sheet or hop data from the lot you purchased will be pointless when you actually go to brew the recipe.
 
I did my own calculation of the gravity from the recipe and got 1.058, in agreement with BeerSmith. I am not sure where the 1.063 came from, but it doesn't seem right to me.

As far as IBUs go, they are very slippery because almost nobody has a way to really measure them.  If you do a concentrated partial boil it is known that your hop utilization will go down, and BeerSmith has a formula for that. It will predict lower IBUs if you do a 2.5 gallon boil vs a 5 gallon boil with the same amount of extract. Unless you are sure that the published recipe numbers were based on laboratory analyses, I wouldn't put too much faith in the numbers and I would go with what BeerSmith predicts. If the bitterness or hoppiness is not to your liking, change it the next time around.

 
Westies said:
Looking forward toward another issue: the IBUs. This should be entirely determined by the hops that get added during the boil. IBUs are way down at 23.1 from the Jay's Brewing recipe stated value of 45. I don't see any way I could double the IBUs with the same amount of hops just by tweaking something in BeerSmith... any ideas here?

If you're diluting the wort at the fermenter, BeerSmith is reflecting the dilution. The maximum saturation of IBUs is around 100 in any concentration. Once you dilute the wort, the IBU level is reduced by the same percentage.

The other issue of which calculation is use has already been addressed. Just make sure you're using the same one as the original recipe.
 
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