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Cider taste mystery

Stillraining

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I just bottled up a Black Butte Porter clone and I'm considering dumping it out.

Here is the mystery.

I brewed this batch up and everything seemed fine until end of fermentation..That's when the Cidery taste developed.  So I figured I had a infection and considered dumping it right then and there but made a call to my LHBS first.  They asked me all the normal questions like how is your sanitation practices?, did you use any sugars?  etc..
  Not being able to nail down a for sure culprit they told me to bring in a bottle for them to evaluate .  I dew off about 2/3's of a  bottel and caped it, tossed in in the front seat of my PU and headed to town about 20 miles away.  When I got there we opened it up and the cider taste was completely gone.  They said bottel it up it will be a great beer!... Well I turned from bummed out to quite excited but left wondering whet happened to turn it around.  The next day found me happly bottling the batch using 4 oz of cane sugar as bottle carbonation.  A week later I tried a bottle.  The cider taste was back with a vengeance.

I did not use any sugar in this grain bill it was all DME.

So what the heck is up?...Did oxygen in the 2/3's bottle for a couple hours do something to purge or neutralize the cider taste?

The only mistake I can think of that I made with this batch was boiling with the lid on. But there doesn't seem to be any Sulfur DMZ notes.

 
Acetaldehyde

Tastes/Smells Like:
Green apples, rotten-apples, freshly cut pumpkin
Possible Causes:
Acetaldehyde is a naturally occurring chemical produced by yeast during fermentation.
It is usually converted into Ethanol alcohol, although this process may take longer in
beers with high alcohol content or when not enough yeast is pitched. Some bacteria
can cause green apple flavors as well.
How to Avoid:
Let the beer age and condition over at least three weeks to a couple months time. This amount of time depends on the beer.  Be a yeast whisperer.  Give them
time to do their job.  This will give the yeast time to convert the Acetaldehyde into Ethanol. Always use high quality yeast and make
sure you are pitching the correct amount for the gravity of the wort or make a yeast
starter.

My general rule of thumb when fermenting an ale is to let it ferment out most of the way at the low end of the yeasts temperature range. (64F to 66F).  I then raise the temperature up to about 70F to 72F and hold it there for at least three days.  I then lower it back down to about 62F to 64F and let it settle and clear.  I'm never in a rush to bottle or keg.  I might let it sit there for a few weeks before bottling or kegging.

If you did rush through the fermentation at too high of a temperature, it may clean up a little bit in the bottle over a few months time, but it probably won't go away.

You can drink it, it won't hurt you.  Just live, learn, move on and brew again.

There are other possible causes too.  Here is a link to an article about it.  http://www.fermentarium.com/homebrewing/brewing-beer/why-does-my-beer-taste-bad/

I hope this helps.
Good luck!
 
Scott Ickes said:
Acetaldehyde

Tastes/Smells Like:
Green apples, rotten-apples, freshly cut pumpkin
Possible Causes:
Acetaldehyde is a naturally occurring chemical produced by yeast during fermentation.
It is usually converted into Ethanol alcohol, although this process may take longer in
beers with high alcohol content or when not enough yeast is pitched. Some bacteria
can cause green apple flavors as well.

Scott :

Thank you for that.

I take really good notes so here it is.

OG was 72..as noted I boiled for 1 hour with the lid on ( I now have learned this is a no no.)
I pitched 1 package of us-05 at 80 degrees wort temp.
I have a heat mat and set the temp at 68...its lowest temp.
Vigorous fermentation occurred in 40 hours.
I left in primary bucket all through conditioning of 2 weeks  at which FG was 30
  I did not record this measurement or even taste it until after I pitched the 4oz of bottling sugar ( My Bad) ...so I re- pitched another package of US-05  and waited another week....it did ferment out a bit more to 26 but the cidery taste was still there...this is where I called my LHBS and took in the sample.  and the sample lost all cidery taste.

I'm really at a loss as to why it lost that taste in the sample but not the rest of it.

I did originally plan on keeping it bottled for a while to see if it improves but it seems to be getting worse not better.
 
Scott.
I read every thing you  linked including your web site and then some. Thank you for that.

I believe I have this.

Another source of this bitterness can come from a bacterial infection.  Acetobacter is a genus of bacteria who can convert ethanol (your beer’s alcohol) into acetic acid.  This astringency will taste more like vinegar. 


But I will let it go in the bottles for another month and see if it starts to work itself out ..if not i will dump it.
 
A sure sign of an infection is a ring in the neck of the bottle. Hold a bottle up to a light and tilt it a bit. If you see a ring at the fill level, then you've probably got an infection of some sort.
 
Stillraining said:
I pitched 1 package of us-05 at 80 degrees wort temp.
<snip>
I have a heat mat and set the temp at 68...its lowest temp.
Vigorous fermentation occurred in 40 hours.
I left in primary bucket all through conditioning of 2 weeks  at which FG was 30
<snip>
...so I re- pitched another package of US-05  and waited another week....it did ferment out a bit more to 26 but the cidery taste was still there...
There may be two problems going on, simultaneously.

This sounds like initially you underpitched and had a lot of metabolic activity. You also probably under oxygenated. This can use up trace nutrients faster than a higher cell count and the higher pitching/fermentation temperature accelerated the effect. The result is up to 7x the residual acetaldehyde in post fermentation.

Yeast actually doesn't care about the flavor it puts out. They just want to consume sugar and will quit alcohol production when necessary nutrients are depleted. Alcohol amounts as low as 6% can be "toxic" to yeast and they'll quit. Yeast can continue to consume sugar, but not reduce any byproducts because of poor cell wall development. It's up to the brewer to control the environment the yeast are in, to achieve the correct flavor and attenuation.

I'm really at a loss as to why it lost that taste in the sample but not the rest of it.
The residual CO2 in the beer could have scrubbed out enough of the aroma that it was difficult to smell/taste. When I'm tasting for acetaldehyde, I look for low levels of the slight twang one tastes from a slightly green banana (or pumpkin) up to slightly under-ripe apples, instead of the more obvious Granny Smith and Jolly Rancher aromas.

I did originally plan on keeping it bottled for a while to see if it improves but it seems to be getting worse not better.
This seems to indicate that on the other side of fermentation, you have enough residual nutrient to allow the growth of acetobacter. It's aerobic, so the more airspace you had available, the faster it could grow.
 
Maine Homebrewer said:
A sure sign of an infection is a ring in the neck of the bottle. Hold a bottle up to a light and tilt it a bit. If you see a ring at the fill level, then you've probably got an infection of some sort.

I just checked 12 bottles ...I could not find a ring and any them.
 
There may be two problems going on, simultaneously.

This sounds like initially you underpitched and had a lot of metabolic activity. You also probably under oxygenated. This can use up trace nutrients faster than a higher cell count and the higher pitching/fermentation temperature accelerated the effect. The result is up to 7x the residual acetaldehyde in post fermentation.

  Its quite possible I should have used 2 packages of yeast as it did start with a  fairly high gravity of 72,  and you are correct I did not splash or aerate the wort prior to pitching.


The residual CO2 in the beer could have scrubbed out enough of the aroma that it was difficult to smell/taste. When I'm tasting for acetaldehyde, I look for low levels of the slight twang one tastes from a slightly green banana (or pumpkin) up to slightly under-ripe apples, instead of the more obvious Granny Smith and Jolly Rancher aromas.

This is definitely a "cider vinegar" taste..but it smells just fine like a normal beer.

This seems to indicate that on the other side of fermentation, you have enough residual nutrient to allow the growth of acetobacter. It's aerobic, so the more airspace you had available, the faster it could grow.

OK this one confuses me.
  The sample with the head space lost all of this vinegary cider taste compleatly...So that seems backwards form what your saying here as doesn't growth of acetobacter create a vinegar taste?  So it should have been worse in the 2/3 full bottle not better, shouldn't it have?
 
Stillraining said:
This seems to indicate that on the other side of fermentation, you have enough residual nutrient to allow the growth of acetobacter. It's aerobic, so the more airspace you had available, the faster it could grow.

OK this one confuses me.
  The sample with the head space lost all of this vinegary cider taste compleatly...So that seems backwards form what your saying here as doesn't growth of acetobacter create a vinegar taste?  So it should have been worse in the 2/3 full bottle not better, shouldn't it have?

It does seem counter intuitive, doesn't it?

Acetaldehyde can be converted to acetic acid through oxidation. With a high residual sugar content, the acetic acid might've created the perception of more dryness than would show on a hydrometer, without necessarily being detected in aroma.

A Porter has a certain amount of acidity and astringency associated with roasted malts. Low to no carbonation tends to accent malt character in a beer. It's reasonable to me that in the midst of what's there and what's expected, that the flavor could've been muted or blended away during your tasting.
 
brewfun said:
It does seem counter intuitive, doesn't it?

Acetaldehyde can be converted to acetic acid through oxidation. With a high residual sugar content, the acetic acid might've created the perception of more dryness than would show on a hydrometer, without necessarily being detected in aroma.

A Porter has a certain amount of acidity and astringency associated with roasted malts. Low to no carbonation tends to accent malt character in a beer. It's reasonable to me that in the midst of what's there and what's expected, that the flavor could've been muted or blended away during your tasting.

OK you lost me... :eek:
I guess I will quit trying to figure it out and just wait a bit more , if it doesn't come round I;ll just have to dump it .

Thanks for all the help.
 
I just checked 12 bottles ...I could not find a ring and any them.

If you pour one and it tastes wrong, I'd suggest that you check the neck extra well with the brightest light you've got.  Rings can be hard to see, especially with brown bottles.  No ring points to process, and that's a good thing because it's easier and cheaper to fix than an infection. Trust me.
 
Maine Homebrewer said:
I just checked 12 bottles ...I could not find a ring and any them.

If you pour one and it tastes wrong, I'd suggest that you check the neck extra well with the brightest light you've got.  Rings can be hard to see, especially with brown bottles.  No ring points to process, and that's a good thing because it's easier and cheaper to fix than an infection. Trust me.

OK I just used a mirror and the sun which is the brightest light source I know of, and I also choose 12 different bottles to examine and still failed to find a ring or even a partial line on the inside of the bottles.  What ever caused this taste happened prior to bottling so whatever it was could have died out I guess if it was a bug.
    If it was my process, then maybe I have already cured it as my batch still conditioning tastes clean ..too hoppy for me... :-\ but clean regardless.          I keep thinking it had something to do with me boiling with the lid on.

The mystery is still  unsolved in my mind and bothers me as to why the sample I took to the store lost "all" of this bad flavor, and I was hoping to find a solution to salvage the batch from someones previous like experience.  I sort of tried repeating the experiment this week  to no avail by just leaving an open uncovered bottle on the counter over night...the taste was still there in the morning.

I suppose reheating it to pasteurize it and then trying to save it by blending it with another VERY sweet chewy beer  to balance it out would be just  tossing good money after bad ? ..... ( and who knows, it might take 15 gal to dilute the flavor it enough... :eek:)

My penny pinching nature just hates the idea of pouring 50.00 on the ground.

I think I might go buy a pint of the lowest IBU oatmeal stout I can find and mix in 1/4 bottle of this stuff in at a time and test the blending threshold theory.  If I can get a whole bottle mixed in  a pint and  still have a drinkable beer I might go for it.
  Any better choices of "sweet chewy beers" that might be better for me to try as a base would be welcomed.






 
Hi StillRaining

Detecting problems in beer (especially in the early stages of your brewing) is really difficult. I think it's a lot like self-diagnosing yourself using Google. You might have a sore or ticklish throat, but instead of working out you've got the beginnings of a cold, you convince yourself you have cancer of the larynx.

The reason this came to mind is when you suspected it was acetobacter infection. I had this is in 2 successive brews (because I didn't do a proper job of cleaning all of the brewery the first time). Believe me when I say there is absolutely no mistaking it if you get it: the aroma and taste is so strong and offensive you could use the beer as smelling salts for dead people.

I've attached a guide by Thomas Barnes that is the best researched, and fully detailed article I have ever found on the subject. It is well worthwhile (IMHO) to save this somewhere because you'll never know when you might need it. I just hope it doesn't encourage too much internet self-diagnosis!  ;D

Cheers mate.
 

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antiphile said:
Hi StillRaining

Detecting problems in beer (especially in the early stages of your brewing) is really difficult. I think it's a lot like self-diagnosing yourself using Google. You might have a sore or ticklish throat, but instead of working out you've got the beginnings of a cold, you convince yourself you have cancer of the larynx.

The reason this came to mind is when you suspected it was acetobacter infection. I had this is in 2 successive brews (because I didn't do a proper job of cleaning all of the brewery the first time). Believe me when I say there is absolutely no mistaking it if you get it: the aroma and taste is so strong and offensive you could use the beer as smelling salts for dead people.

I've attached a guide by Thomas Barnes that is the best researched, and fully detailed article I have ever found on the subject. It is well worthwhile (IMHO) to save this somewhere because you'll never know when you might need it. I just hope it doesn't encourage too much internet self-diagnosis!  ;D

Cheers mate.

Thanks for that  Antiphile..... very interesting read...
  I had no white pencilli or ropey gunk in the fermentator as described  in that article for acetobacter infection .  But I think I will quit trying to be a Nurse Practitioner.. ;)  and just dump this stuff, free up my bottles and move on. 

FWIW  I just tried to boil the flavor out of 12 oz of it in a sauce pan on the stove...it didn't work.  I dont think I want to gambel on blending this with anything else.
 
Hey I might have found a use for one or 2 bottles ;D ;D....Copied this from another forum.

If it turns out really bad, you can always reduce in a pan and add some molasses and tomatoe puree to make a tangy bbq sauce.



Hey that's it by Cracky........I  just solved  my Christmas gift giving dilemma....I will make everyone a bottle of Steak Sauce.. ;D ;D
 
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