I'm brewing 20 gallon batches of IPA OG of 1.065-1.07. I'm not happy with my FG of 1.025 so I'd like to do a starter. I haven't found a stir plate to guaranteed keep 5 smack packs of yeast in suspension of 4+ gallons of wort (per Mr. Malty). I also don't know what type of vessel to use since my plastic carboys don't have a flat bottom. Thanks
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YEAST Starter for All grain IPA 20 gallon
- Thread starter BigBBrew
- Start date
K
KernelCrush
Do you mean liters?
I would do a stepped starter instead if I didn't already have the equipment (or buy more fresh yeast.) A stepped starter calculator is at
http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/
K
KernelCrush
Mr. Malty says 4 smack packs to 12L of 1.030-1.040 wort on a stirplate.
I like Black Maxx stirplate. I like the variable speed. I purchased one from Morebeer but it's more for a smaller 2-3L starter. Not enough magnet to hold a 2" stirbar. I increased the magnet but then the motor didn't have enough torque to rotate.
I like Black Maxx stirplate. I like the variable speed. I purchased one from Morebeer but it's more for a smaller 2-3L starter. Not enough magnet to hold a 2" stirbar. I increased the magnet but then the motor didn't have enough torque to rotate.
K
KernelCrush
After you enter your numbers in the top row then make sure you have stirplate selected from the drop down box right above "Yeast cells needed". It will tell you 4 packs in 12+ liters if you have selected the default "Simple Starter".
Thanks KernelCrush. That makes me feel better about the stuff i bought. I am thinking about aerating the wort with O2 before i pitch the yeast starter. I'm wanting to get transfered to the secondary in a shorter time. Right now its taking about 7 days for things to slow down.
K
KernelCrush
Aeration is something you really should do, if your aerating 4 carboys I 'd want to be using pure O2 for the time savings alone. A lot of people don't bother to secondary unless they have to.
I haven't invested in a O2 system yet. Small investment tho for improving quality.
The majority of articles I've read state the importance of getting the beer off the yeast as soon as it shows signs of slowing. Is it not that critical to the finished product?
The majority of articles I've read state the importance of getting the beer off the yeast as soon as it shows signs of slowing. Is it not that critical to the finished product?
brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
BigBBrew said:
O2 will dramatically increase your yeast performance and volume.
The factors that influence when to rack beer off yeast are many. In an all malt wort, with alcohol <8% and pH of 4.2 - 4.6, yeast is in good shape. A small dose of yeast nutrient or zinc at the end of the boil extends their viability.
Extract beer or beers with more than 30% sugars have diluted nutrient levels, which causes yeast stress and breakdown quicker than an all malt wort from all grain. You detect this with high finishing gravity or sulfury aromas during fermentation.
Yeast will always go for the simplest sugars, first. Too much simple sugar or not enough nutrient changes how yeast builds cell walls and eventually (sometimes quickly) it can no longer process maltose.
Scott Ickes
Grandmaster Brewer
I follow a simple rule of thumb about racking to a secondary.
Less than 1.070 starting gravity, I usually don't rack to secondary, unless I'm adding fruit or something.
Greater than 1.070, I rack to a secondary. I don't have a particular timetable as to when to rack it though. I travel a lot for business, so my work schedule usually dictates it. In a perfect world though, I'd rack it at about 75% to 80% through the fermentation.
As an example, if I brewed a batch with a theoretical starting gravity of 1.100 and an expected finishing gravity of 1.020, my expected total drop in gravity through fermentation would be 1.100 - 1.020 = .080. I would multiply the expected drop of .080 x 75% = .060 drop to my rack to secondary. Thus, I would rack to secondary at 1.040 gravity. 1.100 - .060 = 1.040.
Examples, from what I have currently going:
I have 18 gallons of beer in fermentation right now.
13 gallons were racked to secondary.
8 gallons because that one had cacao nibs, vannilla beans and syrah grape pumice in the secondary. It was also aged in a bourbon barrell for 9 months. It was a club brew of two different beers (a RIS and a Belgian Strong), so all of us racked to secondary. Mine (8 gallons of the RIS) was racked about 80% of the way through the expected gravity drop. We all met at a friends house and racked them to the bourbon barrell, so they were racked three time (to a secondary, then to the bourbon barrell and then each of us got our share racked back to our kegs/carboys at the end of the barrell aging time).
Some of this will be bottled as is, which is a clean beer. Some of it will be saved to blend with the Oud Bruin or one of the two sours I'm creating for the Oud Bruin (described below).
5 gallons is an Oud Bruin on 9 lbs. of fruit. I racked the beer onto the fruit for the secondary and left it on the fruit for two months. It's now aging, before I create an unfruited soured version to blend it with.
I have 5 gallons in primary that had spices (ginger, allspice, cinnamon and clove) at the end of the boil. It's about 90% of the way through fermentation (bubbling about once every 2 minutes or so). It will be racked to secondary today, as it had a starting gravity of 1.087. I've recently raised the temperature on this one from 64F to 70F.
I don't have pure oxygen, as I use an aquarium pump with a diffusion stone. I give my wort 30 minutes of time with the aquarium pump for oxygenation. I also am religious about adding yeast nutrient with 10 minutes left in the boil, no matter what beer I'm brewing.
Less than 1.070 starting gravity, I usually don't rack to secondary, unless I'm adding fruit or something.
Greater than 1.070, I rack to a secondary. I don't have a particular timetable as to when to rack it though. I travel a lot for business, so my work schedule usually dictates it. In a perfect world though, I'd rack it at about 75% to 80% through the fermentation.
As an example, if I brewed a batch with a theoretical starting gravity of 1.100 and an expected finishing gravity of 1.020, my expected total drop in gravity through fermentation would be 1.100 - 1.020 = .080. I would multiply the expected drop of .080 x 75% = .060 drop to my rack to secondary. Thus, I would rack to secondary at 1.040 gravity. 1.100 - .060 = 1.040.
Examples, from what I have currently going:
I have 18 gallons of beer in fermentation right now.
13 gallons were racked to secondary.
8 gallons because that one had cacao nibs, vannilla beans and syrah grape pumice in the secondary. It was also aged in a bourbon barrell for 9 months. It was a club brew of two different beers (a RIS and a Belgian Strong), so all of us racked to secondary. Mine (8 gallons of the RIS) was racked about 80% of the way through the expected gravity drop. We all met at a friends house and racked them to the bourbon barrell, so they were racked three time (to a secondary, then to the bourbon barrell and then each of us got our share racked back to our kegs/carboys at the end of the barrell aging time).
Some of this will be bottled as is, which is a clean beer. Some of it will be saved to blend with the Oud Bruin or one of the two sours I'm creating for the Oud Bruin (described below).
5 gallons is an Oud Bruin on 9 lbs. of fruit. I racked the beer onto the fruit for the secondary and left it on the fruit for two months. It's now aging, before I create an unfruited soured version to blend it with.
I have 5 gallons in primary that had spices (ginger, allspice, cinnamon and clove) at the end of the boil. It's about 90% of the way through fermentation (bubbling about once every 2 minutes or so). It will be racked to secondary today, as it had a starting gravity of 1.087. I've recently raised the temperature on this one from 64F to 70F.
I don't have pure oxygen, as I use an aquarium pump with a diffusion stone. I give my wort 30 minutes of time with the aquarium pump for oxygenation. I also am religious about adding yeast nutrient with 10 minutes left in the boil, no matter what beer I'm brewing.
K
KernelCrush
Your OP says your doing an IPA and trying to get better attenuation. I am thinking you should stay in primary and monitor your attenuation there til you are sure its complete. You may have transferred off the yeast too early the first time. What is your yeast strain and what is your mash temp? Both of these also have a lot to do with it.
Thank you for the input. I am stuck in a spot where I make small changes, and 4-5 weeks later I taste the results and it tastes the same as the previous batch. It's very drinkable, but I want to make something better. I have my system figured out as far as consistency is concerned but something is missing. I think it's time for to ask someone who knows what their doing to taste it. Thanks aging for a all the help.
KernelCrush. I transfered a batch of IPA to secondary last night. OG1.070 FG 1.018. I pitched 5 smack packs instead of 4 or 4+ starter. Fermented 68deg for 8 days. I also used a hop strainer from Utah biodiesel. the taste was almost flavorlesss. I usually taste some bitterness but nothing this time. The biggest diferernce in taste is the lack of maltiness.
K
KernelCrush
That's better than the 1024 you mentioned earlier. Your moving in the right direction. I may not understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure if you are using the yeast calculator correctly if all your batch sizes are 20 gallon. Here is the help file. http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/menu.html. You might consider scaling that batch size down till your results line up with what you want. But I like your go big or go home philosophy. For the flavors thing, the best thing to do is read read read all you can about the process. The internet can be a good source, but can also be bad at the same time. Read books. Enter a few contests and hopefully get constructive feedback from your judges and make adjustments. I am not much of a recipe critic outside of the basics but if you post your recipe others will.
Thank you for all the help. There is a local brew club in my area, maybe it's time to join. I am using White Labs WLP001 and Wyeast 1056 and mash temp is 154. I Will post my recipe later. I started by keeping the recipe simple just to figure out the system.
Things I'll try next batch:
Same recipe
Aerate wort
Yeast starter
Yeast nutrient in boil
Leave in primary
Things I'll try next batch:
Same recipe
Aerate wort
Yeast starter
Yeast nutrient in boil
Leave in primary
K
KernelCrush
Are you saying here that if above ranges are not met, then its better to rack to secondary? If yes, is it because of the increase risk of % dead cells from the higher volume of yeast used plus alcohol toxicity and an out of range pH? Or do you mention it only with a lean towards yeast health for future harvests? Now that I type it out its likely both.
Ive been adding .4 ppm Zinc the last couple of brews at the 15 minute mark. Made up enough to fill a white labs vial which should have been enough for 30 or so brewdays but it went orange-brown in about 2 weeks refrigerated so I tossed it and made fresh. Using zinc sulfate. Not far enough into harvests yet to determine a difference. Then this week I heard or read Palmer say that WL and Wyeast supply enough zinc in a fresh pouch/pack to supply the proper zinc levels thru the second re-use and its only needed after that. If thats the case am I OD'ing?
brewfun
Grandmaster Brewer
Yes, both. But one goes hand in hand with the other. It's tough to repitch yeast that can't hang out in a beer.
I try to stay away from being "too sciencey" on this forum because I'm not very good at explaining it clearly (Tom Hampton is so much better at that). It's never a good idea to get too focused on just one element in brewing. The entire process from mash to carbonation is linked, so, stressing about just one part is like worrying about one tie in a railroad track.
The current understanding about the role of zinc isn't all that old. Only 1999 or so.
Within a yeast cell, there are two working protein/enzymatic systems that use zinc. The first has a high affinity for it, the second system has low affinity. A vacuole in the cell has the ability to help regulate the level of zinc, as well as calcium and other nutrient minerals (plus CO2). The vacuole also plays a large role in the health of the yeast while dormant by acting as an energy reserve.
When zinc is strongly out of proportion to other minerals and FAN, it can lead to the expression of genetic variation in the yeast cells. That expression can be increased acid production or decreased function of the vacuole. When zinc levels fall too quickly, yeast tend to go dormant and if starved of zinc in a beer, the high affinity protein contributes to autolysis.
The timing of zinc additions seems to have an effect on the amount that is available to yeast. Added too early and as much as 90% of it seems get bound in the trub. I'm using tentative language on purpose because the evidence is anecdotal, at this time. The consensus is that adding zinc after whirlfloc has had 10 minutes to work, leads to higher levels available to yeast.
I try to stay away from being "too sciencey" on this forum because I'm not very good at explaining it clearly (Tom Hampton is so much better at that). It's never a good idea to get too focused on just one element in brewing. The entire process from mash to carbonation is linked, so, stressing about just one part is like worrying about one tie in a railroad track.
The current understanding about the role of zinc isn't all that old. Only 1999 or so.
Within a yeast cell, there are two working protein/enzymatic systems that use zinc. The first has a high affinity for it, the second system has low affinity. A vacuole in the cell has the ability to help regulate the level of zinc, as well as calcium and other nutrient minerals (plus CO2). The vacuole also plays a large role in the health of the yeast while dormant by acting as an energy reserve.
When zinc is strongly out of proportion to other minerals and FAN, it can lead to the expression of genetic variation in the yeast cells. That expression can be increased acid production or decreased function of the vacuole. When zinc levels fall too quickly, yeast tend to go dormant and if starved of zinc in a beer, the high affinity protein contributes to autolysis.
The timing of zinc additions seems to have an effect on the amount that is available to yeast. Added too early and as much as 90% of it seems get bound in the trub. I'm using tentative language on purpose because the evidence is anecdotal, at this time. The consensus is that adding zinc after whirlfloc has had 10 minutes to work, leads to higher levels available to yeast.
K
KernelCrush
Thanks for the explanation, I will move it to after the whirfloc instead of with.