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Lager and fermentation....

depper

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Bowling Green, OH
So I started my first lager yesterday (Brewer's Best German Oktoberfest).  I followed the instruction to a T except that I rehydrated the yeast, according to the packet's directions.  I had the yeast's temperature down to about 65 degrees F and added it to my wort, which was about 58 degrees F.  I did all this in a primary bucket.  Then I poured it all into a carboy for fermentation.  When I did this, it foamed A LOT, then eventually settled down.  She is now resting in my "beer fridge" at a steady 55 degrees F (like the kit says), but there is no bubbling going on with the airlock.  Since I haven't done a lager before (or rehydrate yeast) am I to assume this is normal??  I'm just worried I didn't screw up the yeast somehow since I pitched it in a cooler temp wort.  As you all can tell, I'm still learning :)  Thanks for all your advice, time and help!

Tim
 
Sometimes is takes a day or two to start. If it doesn't start in another day, then I'd say pick up a packet of yeast from the store and sprinkle it in. The lager yeast I use is Saflager S-23. It's a yellow package.
 
That's what I figured that it "could" take a few days to start since it's in a cooler environment.  I can't remember the name of the yeast, but I do know I followed the rehydration method to the direction on the packet (time and temp), but having never rehydrated before makes me wonder if I didn't screw that up.  I'll give it until Monday and if I still don't see any bubbles then I'll go up to our local bootlegger and grab another pack of yeast and this time just sprinkle it in.  Thanks so much for your advice!

Tim
 
One thing I do remember about the yeast is that it is best suited for fermentation temps of around 53-59 degrees F and right now the wart is at 55 degrees (thanks to my Johnson Control temp controller and my stopper thermowell)...fingers crossed!
 
Rehydrating shouldn't have hurt it as long as the water wasn't so hot that you killed the yeast. Often the yeast that comes in a kit is old and no good. Best to keep a spare on hand just in case.
 
I know I didn't kill it because the package said to add the yeast to 86 degree F water and I made sure it was 86 before adding. I let it sit for 15, stirred, and sit for 5 more then tried to lower the temp by adding cold distilled water to get it down to about 65 degrees then pitched. Just having never done this process before, I just to make sure I'm on the right path.

Tim
 
Update:  over 36 hours into and zero activity in the carboy and it's steady at 54 degrees.  Looking at the beer there is very little, if any, foam on the top.  Makes me wonder if I didn't add enough oxygen after pitching, but when I poured it from the mixing bucket to the carboy it foamed so much that it started to come out the top so I didn't want to shake it up anymore.  So should I:

1)  leave it alone, it's fine?
2)  Shake it up some more?
3)  Get some more yeast and re-pitch?

If I were to re-pitch, would that have any negative effect on the beer?  Since this is my first lager I'm way overprotected (like a first time dad) and want to do it right.  Thanks for your help!

Tim
 
I guess it doesn't matter at this point because I can't do anything about it, but I won't be able to get the yeast until tomorrow evening, which will make it 72 hours post original pitch, other than prolonging the fermentation process, how will this effect the overall beer (if at all)?

Should I sprinkle in more than 1 pack or will 1 pack be enough?
 
I'd recommend you pitch another pack of dry yeast. Sprinkle it on the wort and forget it for two weeks.

I pitch two packs of dry (Saflager W-34/70) at 45F in most of my lagers and hold them at 50F for two weeks. I'm not sure how long they take to start fermenting; I've done it enough that I'm confident the yeast will work so I don't open the fridge door for two weeks. At that time I take a gravity reading, wait two or three days, and take another sample. They are consistently at a stable gravity reading near the predicted level. I then raise the temp to 60 or 65 for another week and cold crash for a week.

Since this is your first lager, it's natural to be curious about whether or not the yeast is working. After a few more batches you'll probably convince yourself the yeast will work and won't worry about how long it takes to get started.

Theoretically, dry yeast contains enough cells that it does not need to grow, and the growth phase is where it would need oxygen. There is no need to aerate/oxygenate the wort for dry yeast. Wish I could find the reference for that.
 
durrettd said:
I'd recommend you pitch another pack of dry yeast. Sprinkle it on the wort and forget it for two weeks.

I pitch two packs of dry (Saflager W-34/70) at 45F in most of my lagers and hold them at 50F for two weeks. I'm not sure how long they take to start fermenting; I've done it enough that I'm confident the yeast will work so I don't open the fridge door for two weeks. At that time I take a gravity reading, wait two or three days, and take another sample. They are consistently at a stable gravity reading near the predicted level. I then raise the temp to 60 or 65 for another week and cold crash for a week.

Since this is your first lager, it's natural to be curious about whether or not the yeast is working. After a few more batches you'll probably convince yourself the yeast will work and won't worry about how long it takes to get started.

Theoretically, dry yeast contains enough cells that it does not need to grow, and the growth phase is where it would need oxygen. There is no need to aerate/oxygenate the wort for dry yeast. Wish I could find the reference for that.



Quoted from a "Brew Your Own" magazine article, "Oxygen is essential for yeast growth and reproduction. Yeast must grow and reproduce first, before actually fermenting the wort to make beer. Yeast needs oxygen to synthesize the material for expanding cell walls; namely sterols and fatty acids."

The oxygen from aeration does more than just allow the yeast to reproduce.  It helps them expand their cell walls.  Think of the oxygen rich lag phase, as the yeast being in training before they enter a big sports event.  They're not just reproducing, but they are also getting into tip top fighting shape.  You don't just want the proper amount of yeast, you want the proper amount of healthy yeast. 

I personally wouldn't think of pitching yeast into a wort that hasn't been aerated.

 
depper said:
So once I re-pitch the yeast, should I shake it up again??

I would take a gravity reading first.  If it's still at your OG, then shake it up first, then repitch your yeast.

If the gravity has dropped, then the yeast has done some work.  You might find that your gravity has dropped and you just missed the fermentation.  If you don't have an airtight seal, the CO2 coming off of the yeast was getting out, without any airlock activity.

You want to avoid shaking (oxygenating the wort), if the yeast has already done some work.  This would lead to some off flavors that you definitely don't want.
 
Thanks for the advice! I will test the gravity tomorrow and report back what I do. You guys are all great! Thanks for your time.

Tim
 
You're welcome.  We're all just giving back what was given to us by others here and elsewhere.  Durrettd, Maine, brewfun and a host of others have a lot of experience to draw from.  None of us was born with brewing knowledge.  We acquire it along the way, step by step, just as you're doing now.
 
I just tested the gravity and it's still the exact same as it was when I pitched the yeast 72 hours ago.  I can't believe I killed the yeast somehow!  Poop!!  I will head up to the homebrew store in a bit to buy more yeast and this time I'm not going to rehydrate so I can't screw it up again :)  I also plan on shaking it up before I pitch the yeast since nothing has happened yet, per the advice from Scott (thanks Scott). 

Help me on this one.....do I still have a chance to salvage this brew since it's just sat there at 55 degree for 3 days not doing anything, or is it a loss??

Tim
 
It should be okay, as long as you were sanitary with everything.  A package of yeast is not very much as far as cost is concerned.

You might want to take a taste of it though, to make sure that it didn't sour on you.  A sour taste would be a sign that bacteria had started to take over.
 
I feel my sanitation is pretty good (it helps to work in the medical field). I shook it up good and dumped the yeast in. I sanitized the thermowell stopper and air lock again and replaced them both. I will give it 2 weeks and probably test taste once fermentation is complete and then bring up the temp before lagering. Time will tell!! Thanks again for all the help!

Tim
 
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