My next crazy experimental beer. Oud Bruin Fruit Cake Clone beer.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  This is my first beer with bugs, sour, tart....so it's all new to me.

This is styled after one of my favorite beers and has Jamil's Oud Bruin as the base recipe.

I love Crux Fermentation's "Freak Cake" Oud Bruin beer.  It's an experimental brewery in Bend, Oregon.

I've been doing research on how it's made (making some educated guesses on my part) and the flavor profile that it has.  I'm using Jamils' Oud Bruin recipe as the base (how can you go wrong with that?).

It's a basic Oud Bruin, with Lemon and Bitter Orange Peel added at the end of the boil.  I'm going to rack it onto 4.5 pounds of "Fruit Cake" fruits (specifically .75 lbs each of Sour Cherries, Raisins, Cranberries, Figs, Dates and Black Currant).  I'm going to purposely under-aerate it, because I've read that the pedio in the Roselare Belgian Blend doesn't handle oxygen well and under-aerating and under pitching is actually a good thing with this yeast.  Mr. Malty tells me I need 3.3 packages of yeast, so I'm only going to pitch two packages.

Once primary is finished I'll rack it off of the spent fruit and onto a bottle of Pinot Noir and dark toasted oak chips.  I'm going after a Pinot Noir barrell aged touch.  I'm not sure if an entire bottle of Pinot Noir is necessary.  If any of you have thoughts on the amount of Pinot Noir, I'd appreciate it.

I'll then let it age a longggggggggggg time.  A year, maybe two.  Taste will tell me when it's ready.

I'm going to bottle with Lallemands Belle Saison yeast.  It has a high tolerance for alcohol.  I won't be getting much of the flavors, if any, from it anyhow.

I'm not sure what to do about carbonation.  I bottle, so I'm thinking I'll have to carbonate this to the low end of the range to avoid bottle bombs.  Any suggestions on this would also be helpful.

Other Thoughts?  Suggestions?

I'll probably brew another beer and rack it onto the yeast cake when I rack this one and make another sour beer.  From what I've read, there is a lot more sour generated in the succeeding generations of this yeast. 

Also, I didn't put any information in on the how the fruit or wine will affect the ABV of this.  The estimated ABV is based on the grain bill only.  Does anyone know of a way to account for the addition of the fruit and wine in this recipe?  Any help on that would be greatly appreciated.

No replies eh? Made any changes to this one or gonna go at it as is?

I'm going with it as is.  I won a $30 gift certificate as a door prize at the Capitol Brewers Homebrew competition down in Salem, Oregon last week.  I took that and purchased an auto-siphon, new tubing, etc., so that I now have sour beer dedicated fermentation and bottling equipment.

It's going to be my next brew.  I'll brew it either next weekend or the weekend after that.

Scott Ickes said:

I'm not sure what to do about carbonation.  I bottle, so I'm thinking I'll have to carbonate this to the low end of the range to avoid bottle bombs.  Any suggestions on this would also be helpful.

Other Thoughts?  Suggestions?

Click to expand...

Scott, this looks like a fantastic experiment!
Since you didn't got that many replies I just wanted to say that I'm supporting you in the idea and that I'm very curious about the process and results. These Belgium sour beers (Geuze, Saisons etc) are my favourites already from the time I was a student (long time agoo).
Last year I tried to produce a beer based on the "Kombucha" yeast/bacteria cake without any succes (one of my crazy experiments).

I'm not that much of a help in this, but one suggestion I have:
-  I assume the beer at the end is rather dry and low in gravity and also the sugars from the fruits will not have been a problem for the yeast to ferment. So you can calculate pretty accurate based on your measurements the carbonation factor. Belgium oud bruin in general are not heavily carbonated so if you want to follow this style perhaps a factor 2.1 - 2.3 will do? This keeps you as well on the save side if you're afraid for bottle bombs (however, I think you have process control Scott and can go up to 2.8 -2.9 if you want).

Good luck Scott!
R, Slurk

Slurk said:

Scott Ickes said:

I'm not sure what to do about carbonation.  I bottle, so I'm thinking I'll have to carbonate this to the low end of the range to avoid bottle bombs.  Any suggestions on this would also be helpful.

Other Thoughts?  Suggestions?

Click to expand...

Scott, this looks like a fantastic experiment!
Since you didn't got that many replies I just wanted to say that I'm supporting you in the idea and that I'm very curious about the process and results. These Belgium sour beers (Geuze, Saisons etc) are my favourites already from the time I was a student (long time agoo).
Last year I tried to produce a beer based on the "Kombucha" yeast/bacteria cake without any succes (one of my crazy experiments).

I'm not that much of a help in this, but one suggestion I have:
-  I assume the beer at the end is rather dry and low in gravity and also the sugars from the fruits will not have been a problem for the yeast to ferment. So you can calculate pretty accurate based on your measurements the carbonation factor. Belgium oud bruin in general are not heavily carbonated so if you want to follow this style perhaps a factor 2.1 - 2.3 will do? This keeps you as well on the save side if you're afraid for bottle bombs (however, I think you have process control Scott and can go up to 2.8 -2.9 if you want).

Good luck Scott!
R, Slurk

Click to expand...

 

I could actually bottle it in two stages if I wanted.  One half at a lower carbonation level and the other half at a higher carbonation level. 

Also, by the time this is ready to bottle (1.5 to 2 years), I'll probably have my keezer put together and could keg it.

Scott Ickes said:

I could actually bottle it in two stages if I wanted.  One half at a lower carbonation level and the other half at a higher carbonation level.

Click to expand...

Yes, you could taste the result of your first (small) batch, and if necessary adjust the carbonation factor, before you bottle the larger second batch.

I'm brewing this up on Saturday, May 24th.

I have separate equipment, so that I don't mix soft hoses, auto-siphon, etc. with my non-soured beers.

Wish me luck!

Decided to brew it before you leave?

Yes.  I've decided to brew the base recipe with 1056 yeast.  I won't add the Roselaire yeast until later.  The glass of it that I had at Crux wasn't all that sour.  If I put the bugs in later so that it won't get as sour as it would if I put it in right away.

When I get back on June 8, I'll prep the fruit with Campden tablets and then after that is ready, I'll rack onto the fruit in a bucket and let it go for a few weeks.  I'll rack that off the fruit and then add the bugs.  I'm sure my oak chips addition will help the bugs a little too.

Well, this experiment is moving along nicely.  On June 22nd, I put it on the fruit (1.5 lbs each of Sour Cherries, Raisins, Cranberries, Figs, Dates and Black Currants).  The gravity at that time was 1.012.  The cost for the fruit was $77.  This will be my most expensive beer ever!

It started at 1.086 SG.  I racked it off of the fruit and pitched the Roselare yeast today.  The gravity is now at 1.006.  The taste is freakin' wonderful.  I think I nailed the flavor profile that I was after.  I even did a little dance when I took a sip of it.  It's definitely boozy, but it seems to be just what I recall from tasting the Freak Cake at Crux in Bend, Oregon.  My apparent attenuation 92.5% according to Beersmith.  I beginning to believe that Wyeast 1056 is a beast! 

Now it's all about patience.  I doubt the Roselare will do very much, since the yeast cleaned up so much of the sugars.  I wanted to limit the sourness, which is why I pitched the Roselare so late in the game.  Time will tell.  Even if it doesn't sour very much, I think it's still going to be a great beer.  I'm usually not much of a sour beer guy anyhow, but when I tasted the freak cake in Bend, I fell in love with it.  It wasn't nearly as sour as a lot of the other sour beers that I've tried.  I let it age and get happy for a while.  In the early fall or early winter, I'll rack it onto oak and bourbon and let it get even happier.  I probably won't be kegging it until around Christmas or later.

Well.  The Roselare yeast was pitched a week ago.  The airlock is up, but I'm not seeing any other sign of activity.

Since the Roselare has Belgian style ale strain, a sherry strain, two Brettanomyces strains, a Lactobacillus culture, and a Pediococcus culture, I was hoping I'd see something by now.

Do any of you have experience with this strain.  I'm curious as to how long before it would show signs of the bugs starting to work on it.  I'm not expecting a lot of souring, since I didn't pitch it until it was completely fremented out dry by the Wyeast 1056.  I'm just curious, since I have no experience with the Roselare.

I'll be practicing patience, but if it isn't doing anything at all, I'd like to know how to be sure. 

Should I expect to get a pellicle forming eventually?  If so, how long does it usually take before that happens?

How is this beer coming? Any news on the flavor profile? I'm looking to do the same exact thing, fell in love with the Freak Cake last winter... I have to make this at home now!

As with all soured beers, it's coming slowly.  The Fruited Brown part is in the carboy.  I was traveling quite extensively on business when it was time to add the Roselaire yeast, so I was extremely late getting it in.  It never got sour.  I've been emailing back and forth with Michael Tonsmiere (auther of American Sour Beers) on how to get the sour to where I need it to be.

Based on his advice, I brewed up a 1.060 wort (same grain percentages as my higher gravity original), but only hopped it to 7 IBU's.  I then split that 5 gallon batch in half.  I pitched Roselaire into one half and Lactobacillus Brevis plus the dregs from to bottles of Jolly Pumpkin La Roja into the other half.

The Lacto/Jolly Pumpkin half now has a pellicle on it.  When the gravity stops dropping on both of those, I'll have a blending session and figure out how much of each I need to add to the Oud Bruin part to get my sour to the level I want it at.  Then I blend those and add Pinot Noir and oak chips to get the oakiness that I want.

It may be quite a while though.  I'm thinking I'll be blending by maybe May or June 2015.

Attached are photos of the pellicle on the Lactobacillus Brevis/Jolly Pumpkin portion of the soured batch.  My first pellicle.

It's been a whole week! I am dying for an update ;D

I am glad you are doing it as I really don't have the patience for an epic beer like that!

Happy New year

I can't wait to see what crazy beer projects you will get up to in 2015

The only update is that the Roselaire half now has a pellicle too.  The microbes work very slowly, so updates will be slow for a while.

So, after this number of months, how is the beer coming? When did you last taste?

Stefan

Yesterday haha

Notting Hill said:

So, after this number of months, how is the beer coming? When did you last taste?

Stefan

Click to expand...

Stefan,

You must have Extra Sensory Perception!  5 members of my homebrew club were here yesterday for a blending session.  The freak cake never got sour or funky enough, so I had made a split batch of wort that I soured two different ways.  I also had two other 5 gallons batches of other beers that I wanted to experiment with.  So, I'll lay out what we did yesterday, with all of our notes, etc.

The 5 beers are!

Beer #1 - Freak Cake (Oud Bruin on fruit cake fruits) - 5 gallons

Beer #2 - Belgian Dark Strong - 5 gallons

Beer #3 - 50/50 blend of RIS (cacao nibs and vanilla) and Belgian Strong (on Syrah Grapes)...Aged in a bourbon barrel for 10 months - 5 gallons - This was a homebrew club project.  We made 53 gallons.  I bottled 3 gallons as it was out of the barrel and saved 5 gallons for this souring project.

Beer #4 - Sour Beer with Roselaire yeast - 2.5 gallons - Same grain bill and hops as the Freak Cake, but the starting gravity dropped from 1.087 to 1.060 and the IBU's dropped from 21.2 to 6.9.

Beer #5 - Sour Beer with Lactobacillus Brevis Bacteria and the dregs from two bottles of Jolly Pumpkin La Roja - 2.5 gallons - Same grain bill and hops as the Freak Cake, but the starting gravity dropped from 1.087 to 1.060 and the IBU's dropped from 21.2 to 6.9.

First we tasted all five independently and took notes, as follows: (I put all the notes that myself and my friends took during our tastings, so there will be duplications in some cases.)

Beer #1 - Freak Cake (Oud Bruin on fruit cake fruits)
Boozy, silky, sherry or port like, sweet but somehow dry too, alcohol nose fruity, sweet, no hop, alcohol more prominent in aroma than taste, pleasant light tartness, fruity, dry red wine, toffee, over ripe plums, cloying, tart, low on body, light tartness.
Beer #2 - Belgian Dark Strong
Clove, bubblegum, fruit, delicious, malt, roast, sweet but not cloying, fruity nose, alcohol nose, fruity but not tart like the freak cake, maybe a bit tanic, malty, sweet, dark fruit flavors, low yeast flavor and aroma, malty but somewhat dry, very fruity for a beer without fruit, toffee, caramel.
Beer #3 - 50/50 blend of RIS (cacao nibs and vanilla) and Belgian Strong (on Syrah Grapes)...Aged in a bourbon barrel for 10 months
Vinous like, grape, boozy, oak, chocolate, vanilla, smooth, lots of body and mouthfeel, dark chocolate, warming alcohol, oak flavor running over the tongue, low roast flavors, lots of vanilla, a STRONG wine flavor (grapes), lots of wood notes from the oak, more caramel and toffee flavors than the previous two, red wine, oak, chocolate, lots of fruit and oak but not too much of either, sweet, roasty, dark, toffee
Beer #4 - Sour Beer with Roselaire yeast
Mild sourness - not assertive, low body, mild brett, rubber?, barnyard, horse blanket, not much sour, not at all fruity, pretty bland, just a touch of funky brett aroma, lacto aroma but no lacto taste, a little funky, light funk, light barnyard, some horse blanket, disappointing but at only 4 months it should be like this and needs time!, very young with little complexity but should develop nicely given patience and time.
Beer #5 - Sour Beer with Lactobacillus Brevis Bacteria and the dregs from two bottles of Jolly Pumpkin La Roja
Sour!, Awesome, Tart, sweettarts, Blueberry like tartness, puckeringly sour!, Smells like pepsi, Citric Acid!!, like a warhead of sweettart candies blowing up in my mouth, this is my favorite, powerful sour that makes me pucker, Wow!, Blueberry tartness in both nose and flavor, Atomic Bomb, Sour!, Lactic, slight roastiness.

Discussion:
At this point, we discussed the five beers and decided on the following plan:
1.  Leave beer #4 in the carboy and give it about a year.  It is too young at this point and needs a lot more time.  Because of the unknown as to what it will eventually turn out to be, blending now would be a shot in the dark at best.  All agreed with this.
2.  Target the best blend for the Freak Cake first.
3.  Then look at the Belgian Dark Strong and the RIS/Belgian Strong with what is left.
4.  Be flexible and adjust the blending as the flavors guide us.
5.  Keep in mind that any sour blends will be aged for at least a year and will probably increase in sourness, tartness and complexity.

The Blends with notes:
Blend #1 - 10:1 ratio of Freak Cake to Sour #5
Not sour enough.  Probably not sour enough, no matter how much aging it gets.
Blend #2 - 4:1 ratio of Freak Cake to Sour #5
Much better than blend #2!  Still just a little short on sour for now, but will probably be even better with more aging.
Blend #3 - 1:1 ratio of Freak Cake to Sour #5
Perfect for one of the 6 of us, but a little too sour for the rest of us.  Could be a nuclear bomb of sour with aging.
Blend #4 - 4:1 blend of RIS/BS to Sour #5
Nice blend.  We think we hit this one perfectly on the first attempt.  The sourness seems to counterbalance the sweetness of this beer nicely.  It RIS/BS was a really good beer to begin with, but we like this blend even better.
Blend #5 - 2:2:1 ratio of Freak Cake to RIS/BS/ to Sour #5
This blend seemed to have a muddled flavor to us.  All the best parts of the three beers were lost in this blend.
Blend #6 - 1:1 ratio of Freak Cake to RIS/BS
Good, but really boozy.  The two beers don't seem to compliment each other well in this blend.  Both were better alone than they were in this blend.
Blend #7 - 9:9:2 ratio of Freak Cake to Belgian Dark Strong to Sour #5
It's good, but not sour enough.
Blend #8 - 2:2:1 ratio of Freak Cake to Belgian Dark Strong to Sour #5
This was our attempt to sour up blend #7 some more and see if it made it outstanding.  We really liked it.  Much better than blend #7.
Blend #9 - 4:1 ratio of Belgian Dark Strong to Sour #5
We liked the other 4:1 ratio sour blends better than this one, but will still liked this one a lot too.
Blend #10 - 4:1 ratio of BDS to RIS/BS
We tried this blend because we had already decided after the first nine blends that we liked Blend #s 2, 4 and 8 the best.  This would leave us with 4 gallons of Belgian Dark Strong and 1 gallon of RIS/BS to either blend or package separately.  We loved this last blend and will keg it immediately.

The Results:
First Blend Chosen
4 gallons of Freak Cake and 1 gallon of Sour #5 into a carboy for further aging (another year or so).
Second Blend Chosen
4 gallons of RIS/BS and 1 gallon of Sour #5 into a carboy for further aging (another year or so).
Third Blend Chosen
1 gallon of Freak Cake, 1 gallon of Belgian Dark Strong and .5 gallons of Sour #5 into a 3 gallon carboy for further aging (another year or so)
Fourth Blend Chosen
4 gallons of Belgian Dark Strong and 1 gallon of RIS/BS into a 5 gallon keg.  First taste will come when a spot opens up in my keezer.

We started at noon and finished up at 5 pm.  I'm not sure if I've ever had so much fun!  I learned a lot too.

About a year from now, we'll all be getting together again to taste them and decide whether they need further aging or an addition of the #4 sour blend that we left alone for now.  It was a productive day spent with friends and fellow homebrewers. 

The next update will be on the taste of the Fourth Blend Chosen.