Author Topic: Input needed please for 10bbl system  (Read 10466 times)

Offline JakeCpuNut

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Input needed please for 10bbl system
« on: April 22, 2014, 05:35:01 AM »
First question I have is how much volume to put in the "lauter tun deadspace" field. Our MLT has 31 gallons under the screens and I've seen others say put that number in that field. But that's not really loss as the MLT drains from the bottom of the MLT so really the only loss is what's left in the lines. I think I even seen Brad say in one of his videos to put the amount that's under the screens??

Now on to the more confusing stuff (I realize "now" that there has been quite a bit of discussion about this issue of whether to put any volume in the "Loss to Trub and Chiller" field.

So after having used beersmith for several years on the homebrewing scale I used it to formulate our recipes for our 10bbl system.

Our first brew we were off on our numbers so I did some digging and found several different discussions on how beersmith calculates things that I wasn't aware of and also discussion on how there's a "bug" in the software or at least some claim..

Keep in mind we originally set the recipe in beersmith for 85% "total" efficiency. Starting gravity of 1.058 (14.2P). We ended up getting 1.047 (11.6P) at the end of boil. Sample taken from the BK at flame out.

“Total” efficiency is still at 85% and in the “Fermentation” section where I enter what I measured is says my “measured” efficiency is 69%

Our boil off rate was different from what were told it would be (10%) and the volume from BK to FV was off, I had no idea what it would be so I guessed.

So I went back into the recipe and changed the boil off rate and Trub and Chiller loss to match what we got. Here are the numbers..

7bbl ~ 3:1 water to grist + 1bbl under screens + sparged with 6bbl accounting for 2bbl absorption to get 12bbl preboil

590 lb grain bill

372 gallons (preboil)
- 23.50 ( there was 348.50 gallons left at flame out – post boil 6.3%)
-15.50 gallons (cooling/shrinkage)
-38.5 gallons (loss to trub and chiller)
Subtract all those from the Preboil and you’re left with your “batch volume” which is 294.50 gallons. Down from the 315 I originally had before I knew any real numbers.

I changed those numbers and obviously it changed my Est Orginal Gravity to 1.062 (15.1P) This number went up because the batch volume went down after I changed to reflect actual volumes.

“Total” efficiency is still at 85% and in the “Fermentation” section where I enter what I measured is says my “measured” efficiency is 64.6%

Beersmith calculates Est Original gravity on that "batch volume" number.

Beersmith defines "Batch Volume" as "volume of beer as measured into the fermenter"


All of the sudden it kinda hit me, at end of boil (flame out) you don't have shrinkage yet because you haven't chilled it and you haven't had trub and chiller loss yet for the same reason, you haven't transferred and chilled it so I’m thinking this is why my numbers are off even after the volume corrections.

So my "post boil volume' 348.50 and my "batch volume" 294.50 numbers are different and it gives me an Est original gravity of 1.062 (15.1P) mentioned above.

Sooo, I decide to take the cooling loss out of the equation and didn't enter anything in the "trub and chiller loss" field so the "Post boil volume" and "batch volume" numbers now match which makes sense (to me at least).. now my Est original gravity changes from 1.062 (15.1P) to 1.052 (12.8P) Total efficiency still at 85%, measured efficiency goes up to 76.4%. much better than originally thought.. still not good though.

Now note here.. if I go into the “Mash” section of the software my “est mash eff shows 85% and my “measured mash efficiency” shows 95% in the Mash Efficiency section.. even though in the “Fermentation” section my “measured efficiency still shows 76.4% more on that below..

So at this point I was thinking I just need to not subtract shrinkage and loss to trub and chiller from your end of boil volumes, and that I just needed to add more grain to get my measured gravity up or tweak our procedures a bit..

After reading around the forums and talking with a couple of folks I was told you DO need to leave the "trub and chiller loss" numbers and cooling/shrinking numbers accounted for, and instead of taking those numbers out of the equation you need to go "the "Estimated Mash Efficiency" and "Measured Mash Efficiency" in the "Mash Efficiency" section and make those 2 number match. Remember mine were at 85% and 95% when I was at 1.052 (12.8P) with those volumes taken out of the equation. You get those numbers to match by changing the “brewhouse efficiency percentage” in the Equipment profile. Remember mine is currently at 85%

So I go back and (add the trub and chiller loss) back into the equation, account for cooling and to match the numbers in the "Estimated Mash Efficiency" and "Measured Mash Efficiency" once again my Est Original Gravity goes back up to 1.062, measured efficiency goes back to 64.6%, Total efficiency still shows 85%

I go into the “mash efficiency” section and now the numbers are 96.1% Est mash efficiency & 95.5% measured mash efficiency. I go to and change the “brewhouse efficiency” number from 85% to 84.5% to get those 2 numbers in the “mash efficiency section” to match and now are at 95.5% Est mash efficiency & 95.5% measured mash efficiency.

Estimated Original Gravity is now finalized at 1.062 (15.1P) up from my original recipe of 1.058 (14.2P) and shows a Total efficiency of 84.5% and a measured efficiency of 64.6%

Soooooo, what am I’m missing here? Or am I missing something? I suck at math, my head hurts and at this point I don’t know up from down..


Now enter promash..

Sooo.. this morning I downloaded Promash and entered the grains (didn't enter any hops) from the same recipe I've been discussing. Same percentages.. same yield from each grain.. it gives me a preboil gravity of 1.046 (11.4P) and a starting gravity of 1.048 (11.98P) @ 85% efficiency. I can't change the boil off rate in promash and it's at 5% So 12bbl preboil with a post boil "batch size" of 11.40bbl to give me those numbers.

I realize the boil off is like 1.3% less in promash (can’t change it that I could tell) end of boil in promash is at 353.40 gallons compared to beersmiths 348.50 gallons end of boil but to me you can’t even compare those 2 because from what I’ve been told Beersmith needs those other fields entered to calculate correctly. So I have no clue which is correct?

Any input would be greatly appreciated .. I think I've looked at this so much I'm numb from it.. As I said I realize there has been quite a bit of discussion on this possible "Bug" but I just need to get this nailed down for $$ purposes!!

Thanks for any and all input ahead of time!

Offline brewfun

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Re: Input needed please for 10bbl system
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 08:40:50 AM »
Beersmith defines "Batch Volume" as "volume of beer as measured into the fermenter"

Soooooo, what am I’m missing here? Or am I missing something? I suck at math, my head hurts and at this point I don’t know up from down.

Your system sounds a lot like mine, a Bohemian Monobloc. Mine is 15bbl. What kind of recipe are you calibrating to? If it's a 20P over hopped wort, all bets are off. If it's around 13-15P and 45 IBU, you're in the sweet spot for most brew houses.

If you zero out shrinkage and trub loss, you're calibrating to the kettle, which is what Promash does. that leaves you with +/- 12 gallons of variance.

Question: Do you have accurate yield estimates from the pale grain? +/- 1 point makes a big difference at this scale.

Relying on the stock numbers from any program is a source of error. Unless you're over 15% specialty malt(s), you can stick with the target estimates. The pale portion of the grist is the most impact and cost.

In commercial brewing, it matters where and when you measure. In my system, we follow this procedure:

  • Preboil volume at 208-210F
  • Preboil gravity and start timer after 10 min of boil
  • Postboil gravity and volume taken after whirlpool and stand (just before knockout)

The volume difference between the pre and post measuring points is the boil off number for the profile. I use the full volume as the number, not an hourly estimate. This is because the boil off numbers don't change based on kettle volume, for me.

When the stand is done, the kettle is about 200F. I've found a shrinkage number of 3.4% to work to account for what the Hx gives me. I now have a pretty accurate fermentation temperature volume estimate

My loss to Trub and Chiller is 1.3 bbl. I lose 0.9 bbl to the trub cone and the rest to how we transfer. We bypass the fermenter until we get clear wort to start, then follow with chase water and bypass when the wort changes at the end. That is about 10 to 12 gallons.

To set a working brewhouse efficiency, you need accurate malt specs. Use the Fine Grind-As Is number for BeerSmith, then the Coarse/fine difference. Both are usually found in lot analysis sheets. Sometimes you have to ask your supplier or the maltster for more detail.

Armed with accurate numbers, you can use this formula to analyze your measurements:

BHE = (Sg x BV) / (Pg x GW)

BHE: Brew House Efficiency
Sg: Wort Specific Gravity, post chill (or post boil)
BV: Batch Volume, as measured in the fermenter
Pg: Potential gravity of grain
GW: Grain Weight

This formula simply divides the gravity points yielded into the fermenter by the total gravity point potential of grain (or extract or sugars) used.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 08:45:11 AM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline JakeCpuNut

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Re: Input needed please for 10bbl system
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 10:18:47 AM »
Yes I do have the malt analysis sheets for the base grains and have those entered, yield, moisture etc..

I took my preboil sample right after sparge when we had reached our preboil volume of 12bbl and the temperature was around 180 at that time if I remember.. (this BK has a limit switch that won't allow us to start the burner until we reach 8 bbl which to me is dumb and a waste of time)

I took my post boil sample at flame out and didn't wait until after the whirlpool or any settling time. Does it make a difference on waiting since the sugars are there regardless?

I had calculated a 10% boil off per the manufactures recommendation but after seeing we only boiled off .75 bbl in 60 min I changed that in BS to reflect and got 6.3 %

Since our BK and FV both have site glasses, I just used the final volume post boil which was 11.25 bbl and what we ended up with in the FV which was 9.5 bbl so that should be a true measurement for my "Trub and Chiller" loss correct?

We run out as well on the way to the FV until we see beer then clamp to the FV.. At some point we will push with water to get the loss in the lines but have no way to see it at the FV at this point..

So from what you're saying and from what I did, I do need to keep the numbers as I have them, accounting for cooling and loss to trub and chiller and make that number my batch volume.. 

I'm just trying to think this out because the original recipe before I got actual volumes to use was 14 P. After putting in the correct volumes mentioned above my Starting gravity in BS went up to 15P.  With those volumes and everything punched into BS in the "Brewhouse Efficiency" section is says I have 85% Total Efficiency and 64.6% Measured Efficiency

I realize we have an issue somehwere.. the crush looked fine.. We do have rakes and we dough in using a hydrator but after dough in we didn't run the rakes at all during the mash and wonder if we should have a few times throughout the mash. Took 1.5 hours to sparge with 6bbl of 168 water..

THANK YOU for the input!
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 05:38:26 PM by JakeCpuNut »

Offline brewfun

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Re: Input needed please for 10bbl system
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2014, 09:35:11 PM »
I took my post boil sample at flame out and didn't wait until after the whirlpool or any settling time. Does it make a difference on waiting since the sugars are there regardless?

It does for me. Your 6% boil off number sounds normal. I get an additional half barrel of steam loss post boil through stand. That's a half plato of wort concentration. That measurement is recorded, but the "official" gravity is what we measure out of the Hx. There is generally a 0.2P loss from cold break. YMMV.

The level sensor does seem a bit high. Usually direct fire sensors are at the 1/3 full mark. Sounds like it's going to be a challenge to do half batches or very high gravity worts.

Quote
I just used the final volume post boil which was 11.25 bbl and what we ended up with in the FV which was 9.5 bbl so that should be a true measurement for my "Trub and Chiller" loss correct?

Yes.

Quote
We run out as well on the way to the FV until we see beer then clamp to the FV.. At some point we will push with water to get the loss in the lines but have no way to see it at the FV at this point.

PRO TIP: Valves create safety and control!!

Create a bypass assembly. You need a T, valve and sight glass. Connect the valve to the center stem of the T, this is your drain. Connect one side of the straight tube to the fermenter cone. The opposite end is where the sight glass goes. Connect the hose to the sight glass.

Now you can create your sanitation loop, be aseptic and never have to leave the wort to open air.

We have another basically identical assembly at the Hx out. This allows a rover pump to make the loop and be disconnected after sanitation and draining. The now "open" bypass port at the Hx can be used as an aseptic injection port for yeast. No more opening fermenters to pitch.

Quote

I'm just trying to think this out because the original recipe before I got actual volumes to use was 14 P. After putting in the correct volumes mentioned above my Starting gravity in BS went up to 15P.  With those volumes and everything punched into BS in the "Brewhouse Efficiency" section is says I have 85% Total Efficiency and 64.6% Measured Efficiency

What matters is the volume and gravity in the fermenter. Did that work out? If so, then it's just a technical issue to give BeerSmith the correct numbers to factor. With only one batch it's a little too soon to be frustrated. As you get it figured out, you can always apply the updated profile to the recipes in the log. As long as you're recording your actual numbers, this can be solved.

Quote
I realize we have an issue somehwere.. the crush looked fine.. We do have rakes and we dough in using a hydrator but after dough in we didn't run the rakes at all during the mash and wonder if we should have a few times throughout the mash. Took 1.5 hours to sparge with 6bbl of 168 water.

Run the rakes at about 12-16 RPM while doughing in. Then slow them to 4-6 RPM for the mash. Leaving them off is fine, too, but they can be hard to start in thick mashes.

Running them 1-2 RPM during vourloff and sparge is typical, BUT, it depends on who made the system and how far the rakes are off the bottom. In your size, it is often better to just leave them off.

1.5 hrs to sparge is fine. Some systems or recipes can take up to 3 hrs. On a brewer's schedule, you order lunch during vourloff and eat it during sparge.

Quote
THANK YOU for the input!

You're welcome. If you still feel stuck, PM me and we can analyze the recipe and equipment profile further. I can also help you out with recipe/cellar logs for BeerSmith.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 09:37:20 PM by brewfun »
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

Offline JakeCpuNut

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Re: Input needed please for 10bbl system
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2014, 11:24:42 AM »
Sent you a PM. thanks!

Offline brewfun

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Re: Input needed please for 10bbl system
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2014, 06:19:16 AM »
PM answered.
Beer Appreciation is the space between pints.

 

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