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Brewing Topics => Professional Brewing => Topic started by: BeerSmith on August 31, 2011, 07:36:26 PM

Title: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: BeerSmith on August 31, 2011, 07:36:26 PM
Hi,
  I have a large number of microbreweries using BeerSmith now, so I created this board to help facilitate sharing information and lessons learned.  Feel free to add your own questions, tips or thoughts as a thread on this board.

  The most common question by far I get from Pro or microbrewers is how to scale their small batches up to work with the large multi-barrel systems.

  The process for doing this is:
   - Create an equipment profile for your large equipment setup - including the various volumes, losses, etc...
   - Adjust your brewhouse efficiency in the equipment profile - usually this is slightly higher (a few percent) than you will see on the small system
   - Within the equipment profile, adjust the hop utilization factor.  This factor should be 100% for batches of 20 gallons or less, but for large commercial systems it can be substantially higher (as high as 150-200% depending on the system).   For a large system it takes less hops for the same level of bitterness
  - Unfortunately I have no hard guideline for the hop utilization factor for a multi-barrel system.  You need to talk with your equipment manufacturer or another pro-brewer with a similar system to get a rough idea of what this number should be.

  Once you have the large system equipment profile set up, you can simply use the "Scale Recipe" command to scale a small recipe up - select the scale recipe command and select your large system equipment profile and BeerSmith will adjust the recipe to match.

Thanks,
Brad Smith
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: dogma46an2 on August 31, 2011, 11:15:47 PM
Oh I wish someone would post here . I have been working with a brewery getting ready to go big time. our system is just about ready to launch and doing 10 gal on a pilot system for the past few months is bullsh*t let me tell ya ... we are looking at a general rule of a pound per barrel . but i just think that cant always be right the hop situation is what worries me and im just not sure how to do the math for a 14bbl system ... would love to hear some feeback on guys with the same or around the same system .....
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: brewfun on September 05, 2011, 11:45:10 PM
Some general settings I have for my system (15bbl, steam).

I set the hop utilization to 120% for pellets, 110% for plugs and 5% for whole. The calculations with Rager tend to be closest, for me. If you were asking about grain weight, the rule of thumb is 50# gets you into the 1.050 neighborhood.
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: dogma46an2 on October 08, 2011, 02:48:13 PM
Some general settings I have for my system (15bbl, steam).

I set the hop utilization to 120% for pellets, 110% for plugs and 5% for whole. The calculations with Rager tend to be closest, for me. If you were asking about grain weight, the rule of thumb is 50# gets you into the 1.050 neighborhood.


Thanks man ..... I am going to plug in the % on the next brew to see what we get ...
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: /// on October 09, 2011, 05:25:04 AM
Sorry, slow, just saw this.

The key issue I think BS ignores is late kettle utilisation, specifically the whirlpool. I used to work with a IBD Bass trained diploma master trained brewer and he ignored it as well, being used to low AA hops in the 80's saw him miss the issues with high AA new world hops. With the raft of new high alpha flavour hops (topaz/galaxy as Aussie examples) the contribution of AA at whirlpool is significant, per below.

Thanks to the photospectometer, I can show I am getting upwards of 30% BU contribution at the whirlpool on the calculated bitterness. (using a  new 15bbl DME steam heated system with 40 minute run off).  ie., in a USA Pale using Citra/Cascade in the whirlpool I am getting 10-15 BU from the whirlpool (target 40) and have had to dial back the bittering hops to 25 BU to compensate.

On a lighter golden ale using topaz is event worse, with a target of 20-25 BU, I aim for 6 BU at bittering and am getting upwards of 30 BU from the whirlpool. So, I am taking out the whirlpool fraction and adding to the dry hop. One batch saw 35 BU come thru from the whirlpool hops.

The net affect would also be an issue for HB'ers cooling wort in a cube. I have no doubt most aim for the target BU from the initial addition, neglecting to wind down die to the excess stand and exposure times.

So, i dont know if the utilisation needs to go to 200, perhaps more the late hops need to be accounted for rather than showing 0 for BU contribution.

I dunno if and when I will revisit this forum (away for next 6 weeks), ping me an email at scotty@rocksbrewing.com as a follow-up and if I am getting the setting wrong.

Apart from that, I find the efficiency accurate. The new brewery claimed they had 90 efficiency, I claimed 72. Thier auger broke down, had to mash in manually and had thier efficiency jump near 15%. The auger was also churning the grain, whilst the head brewer was increasing mill gap to try and compensate and I was commenting on how fine the malt was. They should have listened to the BS calc's as they were spot on!

Scotty
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: dogma46an2 on October 09, 2011, 08:32:56 PM
Thanks for the info . You weren't late I was, as I just have had replied. I know we are hitting way over on the Bitters on the IPA So I am going to plug in all the data (as my B.M has only been using Beer tools which I don't like and want us to convert over to BeerSmith.) which I haven't totally done yet.
I will shoot you a email here soon and let you know whats going on.

Oh and P.S. - Auger ...... all I have to say is I will be one buff dude by the time we get one lmao ..... When been having to get the premilled Base and doing the specialty on a 15 lbs mini ... ugh We have a mill mind you . Just not a setup mill . We just breaking the ice at this point .... I'll talk with you soon Scotty .


'Eric
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: brewfun on November 01, 2011, 08:31:34 PM
Thanks to the photospectometer, I can show I am getting upwards of 30% BU contribution at the whirlpool on the calculated bitterness. (using a  new 15bbl DME steam heated system with 40 minute run off).  ie., in a USA Pale using Citra/Cascade in the whirlpool I am getting 10-15 BU from the whirlpool (target 40) and have had to dial back the bittering hops to 25 BU to compensate.

That matches what I expect to gain from my whirlpool, as well. My whirlpool times are 30 to 60 minutes, plus a 30 minute stand and 50 minute runoff.

The 120% factor I mentioned before seems to work for getting the balance I expect, even if the IBU numbers don't precisely match.

On another note, I tend to use low CoHumulone (25% or less) hops for primary bittering. Higher CoH varieties don't go much past 15 IBUs in most of my recipes.  In higher gravity products, I will use a cheaper, high CoH variety for a foundation bitterness of about 15 IBU, then add later charges to build from there. 

If my ingredients and procedures are consistent, it all comes together and I have to believe my lab numbers (and palate), anyway.
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: ultravista on November 01, 2011, 09:04:08 PM
Scotty - I appreciate your feedback on whirlpool bittering contributions.

On a small scale, I have often wondered what IBU contributions I get from flameout.

As a small batcher (5 gallon), I kill the flame, toss the hops in a sock, stir like mad to get the circulation going, cover the keggle, and let it sit for 45 to 60 minutes.

This gives me time to clean up, prepare the carboy, and do other things while the temperature drops and the hops impart flavor, aroma, and bittering. I just don't know what effect this has.

I guess in theory, I could add the hops at 15 minutes, give it a little boil, then kill the flame and let them steep as the temperature drops. Do you foresee any issues?
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: SchalkMarais on January 19, 2012, 10:24:58 PM
Anyone using Beersmith for a 3BBL Stout System?
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: DemonBrew on March 26, 2012, 04:34:15 PM
I use BeerSmith with my 5BBL setup.

I have a combined copper/whirlpool and also wondered about extra hop bitterness due to the time late hops sit before casting through the chiller.

Normally boil for an hour, 10 mins before end I add protofloc tabs and late hops.
5-10 mins whirlpool then 20 min stand.

Haven't had lab readings or anything but I know how much bitterness I get by experience I suppose.
Be good to add figures in setting up recipes/equipment.
Have normally used 110-120% utilisation figures as well.

Dave
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: DuelBrewing on February 08, 2013, 10:25:51 AM
Anyone using Beersmith for a 3BBL Stout System?

Bump... same question here.
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: bazowie on February 21, 2013, 11:31:25 AM
You say 120% but then follow up with the comment that larger systems take less hops, either im comfused or I forgot how to do math, (which isnt entirely out of the question).
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: jeremiahhansen on February 23, 2013, 10:17:06 PM
So far this thread has been focused on hop utilization when scaling recipes, but if it's alright I'd like to ask a question about scaling the grain bill.  I am trying to scale recipes from 5 gals to 1 bbl.  When scaling recipes to this size (or larger) do you keep the same percentages for each grain?  Or do you have to change the percentages (of the specialty malts for example) when scaling to match the final flavor?

The closest thing I've found on The Brewing Network was a discussion of scaling recipes due to differences in efficiency, but for the same batch size.  In that case it was mentioned to not change the amount of specialty grains, only adjust the base malt.  But that's a different context than scaling from 5 gal to 1 bbl, 10 bbl, etc.

Any helpful tips on this front, or is it as simple as scaling the malts proportionally keeping the same percentages overall?
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: brewfun on March 02, 2013, 12:26:53 PM
So far this thread has been focused on hop utilization when scaling recipes, but if it's alright I'd like to ask a question about scaling the grain bill.  I am trying to scale recipes from 5 gals to 1 bbl.  When scaling recipes to this size (or larger) do you keep the same percentages for each grain?  Or do you have to change the percentages (of the specialty malts for example) when scaling to match the final flavor?


Percentages are a perfect place to start. As you adjust base malt for mash efficiency and starting gravity you can decide if the specialties need to change, too.
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: Nhoeft on May 30, 2013, 02:40:54 PM
Do any of you guys have experience in upsizing recipes with spices? Is the utilization percentage close to the same as with hops? Specifically, I'm wondering what the spice utilization number would be for a 15 bbl system.
I've scaled a recipe from 5-10 gallons before and seen a reduction in the needed spices, but scaling up to 15 bbls is a whole other prospect.

Thanks,

N
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: Cisco on September 09, 2015, 03:27:10 PM
I'm getting ready to brew my first batch on a 3 1/2 barrel system. I've made test batches on my pilot 10 gallon system and I'm ready to start sizing up my recipes. On my pilot system I use whole hops and have a boiler screen that filters the wort on the way out and I usually add my last hop addition 20 to 15 min. before end of boil. My 3 1/2 barrel system can only use hop pellets and therefore I have to possibly move my normal late hop addition to the whirlpool/steep step. What concerns me is the hop utilization during the 20 min. whirlpool and 20 min rest before moving the wort through my wort chiller. I see that BS2 has a Whirlpool/Steep option for hop additions but how accurate have you found this to be? All advice is appreciated!
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: selvaseria on August 04, 2016, 03:03:35 AM
Hi, I’m a Catalan micro-brewery that uses Beersmith to design recipes. I have changed my personal pc so I need to transfer all my recipes, profiles of equipment, malt, hops, yeast etc to the new laptop. I got the key and I can export recipes, but I can’t export profiling equipment , malt, hops and yeast, could you help me please? Thank you very much for your help
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: iWeasel on August 17, 2016, 12:50:07 PM
Hi, I’m a Catalan micro-brewery that uses Beersmith to design recipes. I have changed my personal pc so I need to transfer all my recipes, profiles of equipment, malt, hops, yeast etc to the new laptop. I got the key and I can export recipes, but I can’t export profiling equipment , malt, hops and yeast, could you help me please? Thank you very much for your help

In my version of Beersmith, you can right-click any profile or ingredient and select Export... Save the file(s) to a USB, say, and import to the new set up. Have you tried this?
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: crswerd on September 06, 2016, 02:11:21 PM
So your basically saying anything 20 gal. or under should simply use the scale button without changing hop utilization etc.?  Just simply plugging in a 5 gallon recipe and scaling to 10 gallons is just a matter of changing the scale and I can feel confident in the hop additions scale?

Thanks
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: rcarvalho55 on September 14, 2016, 12:51:16 PM
Am I right to say that I can upscale a 5 gal batch recipe in BS to a 1bbl by simply multiplying all figures by 6? And by figures I mean grains, hops, water and yeast.
Title: Re: Using BeerSmith 2 for Pro Brewing (Scaling Recipes)
Post by: brewfun on September 15, 2016, 04:52:12 AM
Am I right to say that I can upscale a 5 gal batch recipe in BS to a 1bbl by simply multiplying all figures by 6? And by figures I mean grains, hops, water and yeast.

Not exactly. Scaling is designed to match the recipe to the differing specs of equipment. The larger the volume jump, the more a small rounding error can become an issue. For instance, I have a 40 bbl recipe that takes just 10 lbs of black malt. A 5 gallon version would just calculate 0.645 oz. Well, that's a bit impractical, but, do we round that up or down? If then scaled back up, you can see how it won't line up with the original number.

When going from small to large, you first have to just give it a reality check. Think about the flavor impact of the grain and adjust accordingly. That's what being a pro brewer is all about!