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BeerSmith Software => BeerSmith 2 Questions => Topic started by: h22lude on October 18, 2019, 08:59:08 AM

Title: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 18, 2019, 08:59:08 AM
Going to be doing a few extract and steeping grain batches to show some friends. Trying to remember how to calculate gravity for extract. I'm using BeerSmith and it doesn't seem like he calculates it correctly.

For volume, my post-boil will be 6.5 gallons and wort into fermentor will be 5.5 gallons. BeerSmith calculates OG by using the into fermentor amount. For example, 1lb of DME has 43 points per pound per gallon. So BS calculated it as 43 points x 1lb DME / 5.5 gallons to get about 1.008. Shouldn't the volume used be post boil (6.5 gallons), since at that point the gravity of the wort won't change? Whether you put all 6.5 gallons into the fermentor or leave 3 gallons in the kettle, that wort will have the same gravity.

Also, I'm using steeping grains which I know adds a little sugar. I'm using 2oz black patent, 6oz chocolate wheat, 8oz carafoam, 8oz C10, 8oz flaked oats and 1lb C60. BS is only giving a total of 2 points for all those grains (and as above, is using 5.5 gallons to calculate it). Using John Palmer's grain list (http://howtobrew.com/book/section-2/wha ... alt-yields), I get a little over 6 points when using 5.5 gallons as BS would use. If I use 6.5 gallons, like I think I should, I get a little over 5 points which is still higher than the 2 BS calculates.

Am I missing something or is BS wrong?
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: Oginme on October 18, 2019, 04:35:45 PM
I have created an extract recipe using DME and my standard batch size.  So I have 1 kg of DME with a potential of 1.045 (45 points) in a 10 liter batch size with 1 liter of trub.  The program calculates out the OG in the fermenter as 1.034, which is correct for 11 liters at the end of the boil.  If the program were to calculate the gravity based upon the batch size (10 l) then it would give me a gravity of 1.037 as my target.  Seems to me that the program is doing the calculation correctly.

For the above, I changed the recipe type to 'extract' in order for the program to use the proper set of equations to calculate out the OG value.

For the steeping grains, you are comparing the settings in BeerSmith where the steeping extraction is set for 15% of the available sugars from that grain to a figure in Palmer's book which lists an unknown potential for the grain with an unknown steeping efficiency.  Until you actually do the recipe and see where your values come out, you are really just chasing numbers that you have no basis for comparison.  I can tell you that when I make extract plus steeping grains, I ended up increasing the the steeping efficiency to 19% because every system is different and that is what my system produced.  It has worked reliably and predictably since I made that change.

The program is a set of calculations.  The tools are embedded within the program for users to customize the expected results for them to make the program match what their system gives you. 
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: GigaFemto on October 18, 2019, 07:54:53 PM
Beersmith 2 and 3 calculate gravity incorrectly for all-grain batches with large amounts of extract. For the grain contribution the final amount of sugar in the fermenter uses the trub loss to calculate the percentage. It takes the cooled volume in the kettle and assumes that the percentage of sugar that makes it into the fermenter is: (batch volume)/(cooled volume) =((cooled volume) - (trub losses))/(cooled volume). However, BeerSmith 2 and 3 incorrectly assume that trub losses of ZERO apply to the DME contribution, so all the sugar from DME makes it into the fermenter. For small amounts of DME this is not a big deal, but if you are using significant amounts, the OG calculations are wrong unless you actually do have trub loss of zero (i.e. you dump the whole kettle into your fermenter). Also, BeerSmith 2 and 3 don't account for the volume of the DME. The recipe tab will list the volume of the DME but the calculations on the volumes tab don't take this into account (?? this boggles my mind). Again, for small amounts it doesn't matter, but when you start adding several pounds to a 5 gallon batch it is significant. My mash tun is too small to handle more than about 13 pounds of grain, so for high-gravity beers I add a lot of DME to get the OG up. I have two stouts coming up that will have several pounds of DME in them and I have had to calculate gravities and volumes myself because BeerSmith is just wrong. I complained about this in BeerSmith 2 and was greatly disappointed to see that BeerSmith 3 did not fix these problems. it isn't a big deal for me because I know the issue and when to do my own calculations, but it is an ongoing source of confusion to others.

--GF
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 06:17:14 AM
I have created an extract recipe using DME and my standard batch size.  So I have 1 kg of DME with a potential of 1.045 (45 points) in a 10 liter batch size with 1 liter of trub.  The program calculates out the OG in the fermenter as 1.034, which is correct for 11 liters at the end of the boil.  If the program were to calculate the gravity based upon the batch size (10 l) then it would give me a gravity of 1.037 as my target.  Seems to me that the program is doing the calculation correctly.

For the above, I changed the recipe type to 'extract' in order for the program to use the proper set of equations to calculate out the OG value.

For the steeping grains, you are comparing the settings in BeerSmith where the steeping extraction is set for 15% of the available sugars from that grain to a figure in Palmer's book which lists an unknown potential for the grain with an unknown steeping efficiency.  Until you actually do the recipe and see where your values come out, you are really just chasing numbers that you have no basis for comparison.  I can tell you that when I make extract plus steeping grains, I ended up increasing the the steeping efficiency to 19% because every system is different and that is what my system produced.  It has worked reliably and predictably since I made that change.

The program is a set of calculations.  The tools are embedded within the program for users to customize the expected results for them to make the program match what their system gives you. 

I started off using extract setting.  That does calculate the extract gravity correct using the post boil volume.  I don't feel like it calculates steeping grains correctly.  So I switched to partial mash which was calculating it a little better but that is where it doesn't calculate extract correctly.  If you enter just extract and use partial mash setting, BS uses into fermentor volume.  I'm not sure why it would do that.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: Oginme on October 19, 2019, 07:41:45 AM
With a partial mash setting, the program will treat your steeping grains as if they were a base malt and possibly calculate to extract more sugars than they contain. 

It is your choice in how you want to use the program, but manipulating it to match what you "think" it should give you for output without some basis in what your process will actually produce is setting yourself up for disappointment and/or frustration if you don't achieve those values.

Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 12:39:34 PM
With a partial mash setting, the program will treat your steeping grains as if they were a base malt and possibly calculate to extract more sugars than they contain. 

It is your choice in how you want to use the program, but manipulating it to match what you "think" it should give you for output without some basis in what your process will actually produce is setting yourself up for disappointment and/or frustration if you don't achieve those values.

I agree things might change based on my system but I feel it is safer to go with what Palmer has stated than the 1 gravity point BS is spitting out.  There is no mash efficiency with steeping grains.  The starches have already been converted to sugars.  I just need to rinse them out.  I will definitely get more than 1 point from these 3 pounds of grains.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: BOB357 on October 19, 2019, 01:02:15 PM
With a partial mash setting, the program will treat your steeping grains as if they were a base malt and possibly calculate to extract more sugars than they contain. 

It is your choice in how you want to use the program, but manipulating it to match what you "think" it should give you for output without some basis in what your process will actually produce is setting yourself up for disappointment and/or frustration if you don't achieve those values.

I followed this person's same subject thread on Reddit. No matter what you try to tell him he'll argue that he's right and nobody understands what he's doing. You're wasting your breath.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 01:21:03 PM
I followed this person's same subject thread on Reddit. No matter what you try to tell him he'll argue that he's right and nobody understands what he's doing. You're wasting your breath.

Please tell me what I've said that is wrong.  Give me just one thing.

People understand what I'm talking about.  Those people understand how to calculate gravity when using extract.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: BOB357 on October 19, 2019, 01:41:28 PM
I don't waste my words on those who refuse to listen to good advice. Hope you achieve whatever it is you want.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 02:07:16 PM
I don't waste my words on those who refuse to listen to good advice. Hope you achieve whatever it is you want.

I did listen to good advice.  Someone on the Reddit thread and Oginme in this thread said to look at the steeping grain efficiency.  That fixed my issue.  Still doesn't answer why partial mash doesn't calculate extract additions correctly though.

You post saying no matter what people tell me I will argue that I'm right.  But then when asked to post where I was wrong, you say you don't want to waste your time...but you spent the time to come here and say I'm argumentative.  This is a typical response when you have no proof that I was argumentative.  Usually coming from someone that was proven wrong but can't admit it.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: BOB357 on October 19, 2019, 04:16:15 PM

BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
 
 
Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
? Reply #5 on: Today at 12:39:34 PM ?

Quote
Quote from: Oginme on Today at 07:41:45 AM
With a partial mash setting, the program will treat your steeping grains as if they were a base malt and possibly calculate to extract more sugars than they contain. 

It is your choice in how you want to use the program, but manipulating it to match what you "think" it should give you for output without some basis in what your process will actually produce is setting yourself up for disappointment and/or frustration if you don't achieve those values.


I agree things might change based on my system but I feel it is safer to go with what Palmer has stated than the 1 gravity point BS is spitting out.  There is no mash efficiency with steeping grains.  The starches have already been converted to sugars.  I just need to rinse them out.  I will definitely get more than 1 point from these 3 pounds of grains.

Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 06:26:00 PM

BeerSmith 2 Rocks!
 
 
Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
? Reply #5 on: Today at 12:39:34 PM ?

Quote
Quote from: Oginme on Today at 07:41:45 AM
With a partial mash setting, the program will treat your steeping grains as if they were a base malt and possibly calculate to extract more sugars than they contain. 

It is your choice in how you want to use the program, but manipulating it to match what you "think" it should give you for output without some basis in what your process will actually produce is setting yourself up for disappointment and/or frustration if you don't achieve those values.


I agree things might change based on my system but I feel it is safer to go with what Palmer has stated than the 1 gravity point BS is spitting out.  There is no mash efficiency with steeping grains.  The starches have already been converted to sugars.  I just need to rinse them out.  I will definitely get more than 1 point from these 3 pounds of grains.

This post just proves to me that you don't understand the problem and are just posting to be deviant for no reason.  You blindly following a product and when someone questions whether the product is working properly, for some reason you get butt hurt.

If you took the time to read what I'm saying the problem is, maybe you would understand.  If you don't want to learn or help others learn, you should just stay away from forums and stop trying to be a troll.  If you care to learn, go look at my post in the Beersmith Mobile sub forum.  That may help you understand.  If you don't care to, then continue to blindly use products without questioning whether they are right or not.  Even if I'm wrong, I at least try to learn.  You just post nonsense.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: BOB357 on October 19, 2019, 07:14:17 PM
This would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. You actually believe that you're right and everyone else is screwed up, don't you? Have fun with yourself.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 07:23:26 PM
Nope I don't think I'm right, I know I am.  You have yet to give me one example of why I am wrong but I figured that would happen.  You don't understand the calculations so you just say I'm wrong.  I get it.  It is a very human thing to do.  Say someone is wrong because you don't understand.

I probably shouldn't egg you on anymore but just in case a small part of you actually wants to learn.  This is my post from the mobile sub forum and explains why the extract addition calculation within BS is wrong.

The constant variables are...
1) Post boil volume is 6.5 gallons
2) Into fermentor volume is 5.5 gallons
3) 5lbs of DME at 45ppg
4) How to calculate gravity...points per pound per gallon X pounds of extract / gallons

When using the extract setting type, the gravity that BS calculates is 1.034.  This is correct.  Using the equation from #4, 45ppg X 5lbs / 6.5 gallons = 34 points (which is 1.034).  Sugar is added to a volume of water.  Some of that water evaporates during the boil.  After the boil, we are left with 6.5 gallons of water (wort at this point).  That volume and the sugar concentration in that volume will never change going forward.  If you take 5 gallons from that or you take 1mL, the gravity will always be 1.034.

When using all-grain and partial mash setting type, the gravity that BS calculates is 1.041.  This is not correct.  When using all-grain and partial mash, BS calculates the gravity of the wort when using extract by using the into the fermentor volume even though that sugar was put into the post boil volume.  45ppg X 5lbs / 5.5 gallons = 41 (which is 1.041).  Changing BH efficiency does not change that gravity figure.  I have it set at 1% and then changed it to 100%, the gravity figure stays the same at 1.041.   I also changed between all-grain and partial mash.  Still 1.041.  I changed to boil off amount from .9 gallons to 1.5 gallons.  That also didn't change the gravity, which it shouldn't so that is correct.  Changing the Loss to Trub and Chiller also doesn't change the gravity (which it should because now the post boil volume will be higher).  Changing the batch size (which is into the fermentor volume) does change the gravity for both all-grain and partial mash.  I agree that changing the batch size will change the gravity but that is because it will also change the post boil volume (which is what we use to calculate gravity of extract additions).  The reason the gravity changes in BS when changing the batch size is because it uses batch size to calculate gravity of extract additions.

I then added grains into the equation.  I added 8lbs of pilsner.  Using partial mash and all-grain, BS calculates the gravity for just those grains to be 1.038 for a 5.5 gallon batch with 6.5 gallon post boil volume.  I agree with that calculation.  I then added the same 5lbs of DME.  The gravity now is 1.079.  The difference between the gravities is 41 points.  If you remember from my DME only example above, 41 points is what we get when using the batch size (into fermentor volume).  So even with all-grain and partial mash using DME and grains, BS is still using batch size to calculate extract additions.  I changed my BH efficiency from 72% to 1%.  This did change the gravity but only from the grains.  At 1% I got a gravity of 1.001 for just the grains.  When I added the DME back in, I got 1.041 (which is 1 point off but that is probably due to rounding).

When using all-grain or partial mash and you have an extract addition during the boil, BS does not calculate the gravity correctly.  It should use BH efficiency for sugars from grain and post boil volume for the extract addition.

Let's think about this another way.  Let's say we mashed in with the 8lbs of pilsner malt and boiled for 60 minutes.  Our post boil volume is 6.5 gallons and our gravity is 1.038.  Now we add 5lbs of DME to the 6.5 gallons post boil.  The DME adds 34 points (45ppg X 5lbs / 6.5 gallons).  So we have 1.038 from the grain and 1.034 from the DME giving us 1.072.  We now drain 5.5 gallons into our fermentor.  That 5.5 gallons in our fermentor is still 1.072 BUT the way BS calculates this we are getting 1.079.  How can transferring wort from the kettle to the fermentor increase gravity?
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: Oginme on October 19, 2019, 07:27:23 PM
OK, let's try looking specifically at the partial mash setting.  This means the program is using not only the extract addition but also the mash setting *Including any mash tun losses* and the Brew House efficiency on the grain portion of the malt bill.  If you are steeping grains, you do not have the losses for the mash tun so this setting should not be looked at or compared to any other setting.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 19, 2019, 07:40:09 PM
The steeping grains portion of my issue has been solved.  I needed to adjust the steeping efficiency and the grain potential to get what I wanted.  I'm ok with that.  My issue now is if I have an extract addition in an all grain batch.  So I have base malt and will be mashing.  I need to use the all grain or partial mash setting.  This is where I don't think it calculates extract additions properly.  For a TL:DR, read the last paragraph from my last post.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: Oginme on October 20, 2019, 06:37:20 AM
OK, got it.  To best understand what is going on with your equipment profile and recipe I recommend exporting it as a .bsmx file and posting it here.  That way we can see how your profiles and recipe interact to determine if the calculations are what should be expected and where they may be going off for you.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 20, 2019, 07:30:35 AM
There was a lot of changing things to figure this out so it will be hard to post all of it.  I posted my equipment profile.  Recipe extract is just 5lbs DME with extract setting.  REcipe partial mash is just 5lbs DME with partial mash setting showing that the gravity changes.  Recipe partial mash grain only is with just 8lbs pilsner showing the gravity for just the grain.  Recipe partial mash grain and extract is showing the grain plus adding DME to show that is still calculates the extract addition at into the fermentor volume.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: Oginme on October 20, 2019, 11:42:34 AM
OK, so the only meaningful one is the recipe in question:  Partial mash grain and extract. 

Important info from recipe:

BHE: 72%

Batch size:  5.5 gal
Trub loss: 1 gal

Grain:  8 lbs Pilsner at 1.036 contribution
Extract: 5 lbs DME at 1.045 contribution

Given your BHE and grain bill, you have 8 lbs at 36 points for 288 gravity points of grain. 
At 72% BHE, there are 207 gravity points in the fermenter
Per gallon, this is 207/5.5 = 38 gravity points per gallon.
With one gallon of trub, there would be 38 points lost to the trub from the contribution of the grain.
That means that 207 points plus 38 points, or 245 gravity points are in the post boil volume.

Your extract will give you 5 lbs at 45 points for 225 gravity points.

If the extract is added to the boil, then 100% of this is in the post boil volume.
This contribution of 225 points plus the grain contribution of 245 points gives you 470 gravity points post boil
Your post boil volume is 5.5 gal in fermenter plus 1 gal trub loss or 6.5 gallons

470 gravity points in 6.5 gallons is 72 gravity points per gallon or a target of 1.072 target final gravity

Since this does not match BeerSmith's prediction, we will tackle it another way:

245 points from the grain in 6.5 gallons gives a gravity point contribution of 38 gravity points per gallon
225 points from the extract in the fermenter volume of 5.5 gallons gives us 41 gravity points per gallon.

This total is 79 gravity points or an OG of 1.079, which does match BeerSmith's prediction

So it appears you are correct in your assertion that the program does not calculate this value correctly.  The best thing to do at this point is to copy this to Brad so that he can look at the way the program calculates out the OG value for partial mash.  He has commented that he is working on some fixes right now for a update of the current version of BeerSmith (which does do the calculation the same was as BS2), so this would be the best time to let him know of the issue.

This is why attaching a recipe demonstrating your issue is critical to verification or helping to understand BeerSmith.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 20, 2019, 03:22:11 PM
I emailed him via the support page and linked this thread for more detail.  Thanks for staying with me on this, confirming my assumption and helping me talk through it.
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 20, 2019, 03:23:32 PM
This would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. You actually believe that you're right and everyone else is screwed up, don't you? Have fun with yourself.

Just in case you wanted an update.  It has been confirmed BS is calculating extract additions incorrectly for all-grain and partial grain, just as I suspected.  Cheers mate
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: GigaFemto on October 20, 2019, 06:19:31 PM
That's what I said in the second reply to you. I guess I wasn't clear enough. You seem to be mathematically adept enough to do the calculations for yourself, so now that you know that BeerSmith is wrong, just do it yourself. I wrote an Excel spreadsheet that I use when I know I will be using a lot of extract. It's not that hard.

--GF
Title: Re: Calculating gravity on partial mash and extract batches incorrectly?
Post by: h22lude on October 21, 2019, 04:46:33 AM
That's what I said in the second reply to you. I guess I wasn't clear enough. You seem to be mathematically adept enough to do the calculations for yourself, so now that you know that BeerSmith is wrong, just do it yourself. I wrote an Excel spreadsheet that I use when I know I will be using a lot of extract. It's not that hard.

--GF

That's fine, I can do it myself but shouldn't I want a paid for program to be fixed?