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Brewing Topics => Brewing Discussion => Topic started by: dtapke on April 04, 2019, 02:38:13 PM

Title: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 04, 2019, 02:38:13 PM
seems slow today, My next beer i think will be a Brut IPA. Anyone play with this yet?  sound's like a great spring/summer beer to me. I'm thinking maris otter/pilsner malt for base a small hop charge for kettle performance, some whirlpool for 30 min at 175, then a few big dry hop charges. Debating doing Nelson Sauvin or a NS and Citra double dry hop. I haven't had any commercial examples but the concept sounds nice.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 04, 2019, 02:47:58 PM
maybe something simple like this. I've got to do some reading on amyloglucosidase addition, and I'm a bit curious what water profile i should target.


i'm also debating subbing some barley for rice and/or corn, some wheat. not really sure yet! Seems like its all over the place. but i like the concept. super crisp and dry but with a lot of good hop flavor and aroma. I like Nelson Sauvin for its dry wine-like profile. and I'm thinking the oyl-200 for its fruity characteristics. maybe even underpitch and ferment high temps... anyways, just hoping for someone to bounce ideas off of!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: merfizle on April 04, 2019, 03:50:34 PM
Here's mine. Just be careful when under pitching, some yeast will through off unwanted flavors/aromas.

As for water, I chose RO and mineralized it to "yellow balanced". I recommend dry hopping during primary as the yeast interaction with the hops can create something different and very satisfying. Multiple small charges of dry hops usually does more for me than one, large charge. I added amylase about 3-4 days into primary fermentation. FG was 1.003 or so after 2-3 weeks.

Cheers,

Mark
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 04, 2019, 05:33:42 PM
I usually do my first Dry Hop at high krausen with dry hopped beers, oyl-200 is pretty well known to love a bit of abuse, i've used it in a few NEIPA's i've done and been pretty happy, although i'm mildly concerned with the intentional over-attenuation that the amylase will provide, so i may be a bit more timid with this first batch.

i've heard good things of adding rice/corn/wheat, but may go more standard with just malt for the first batch i try. Moteuka could certainly be a good addition with the NS I think i've got a pound or two laying around of that as well.

Overall, what did you think of yours? what would you change on your next batch?

as far as the yellow balanced profile, i'm a bit concerned about the sulfate coming through a bit much and was thinking a more minerally (thats a word right?) profile maybe like the "munich" style one would use for bocks to help accentuate the hop bite and provide a bit crisper flavor.. water is still my weak point in brewing. I do start with RO/DI water and build from there, and have a decent grasp on it, but really need to learn more (always!)
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: GigaFemto on April 04, 2019, 10:56:24 PM
i've heard good things of adding rice/corn/wheat, but may go more standard with just malt for the first batch i try.

The advantages of corn and rice for this style is that they can produce wort that is very light in color. On the other hand, they have no enzymes so your malt must have enough diastatic power to convert all the starches. Because the proportion of rice or corn in these recipes tends to be quite high, that can be a challenge. You can add amylase enzyme if your base malt is not up to the task. This is added at the start of the mash, in addition to any alpha galactosidase that you add in the mash or during fermentation.

--GF
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 05, 2019, 06:33:14 AM
I've brewed with plenty of flaked corn before, but not rice. I just figured i'd do a cereal mash if i was to use a large amount of them.

and i haven't really seen any recipes on a brut yet, but i usually don't follow many peoples recipes i much prefer to get the concept down and create my own.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on April 05, 2019, 06:37:43 AM
The concept of Brut IPA is not even two years old, yet. So, it's still evolving as a style. To me, it's more of a technique than a style, but that's how I view Cal Common, too.

What sets it apart is the use of adjuncts plus enzymes in the mash and fermentation to increase the fermentability, decrease proteins and generally vanish the malt character. What's left is hop character carried by alcohol. The hop character is supposed to show the effects of bittering, late WP, then early and late dry hop, while being bone dry, effervescent and brilliantly clear.

This article discusses how Kim Sturdavant started the technique. https://beerandbrewing.com/the-birth-of-the-brut-ipa/

The irony is, that to be made well, the brewer must embrace the same technology and wort manipulation long practiced by the mass lager companies, that most vow to hate. Adjunct grain and enzymes are the keys to this emerging style. Another irony is that some assume champagne yeast is required when it is not. In fact, the esters and fusel alcohol of champagne yeast can get in the way.

Long ago, I accepted the fact that brewers are early adopters of technology and push the boundries of malt's willingness and flexibility for making beer. After all, by 1855, lager breweries had mostly accepted that pure yeast strains were making better beer (sort of an early germ theory) and that microbes could ruin it. However, in 1865, surgeons were still wiping knives on their shirt sleeves in open sided tents during the US civil war.

I make a Brut with corn (instant grits) and three types of enzymes. I get pungent hop aroma and complex hop flavor, along with just about double the shelf life of my primary DIPA. There's also Munich malt which is transformed into wonderful crusty bread flavor without the usual sweetness. A benefit of amylase enzyme is you can use crystal malt because it'll break down dextrine and leave the flavor.

Attached is my first recipe for Brut.




Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: merfizle on April 05, 2019, 06:46:10 AM
I usually do my first Dry Hop at high krausen with dry hopped beers, oyl-200 is pretty well known to love a bit of abuse, i've used it in a few NEIPA's i've done and been pretty happy, although i'm mildly concerned with the intentional over-attenuation that the amylase will provide, so i may be a bit more timid with this first batch.

i've heard good things of adding rice/corn/wheat, but may go more standard with just malt for the first batch i try. Moteuka could certainly be a good addition with the NS I think i've got a pound or two laying around of that as well.

Overall, what did you think of yours? what would you change on your next batch?

as far as the yellow balanced profile, i'm a bit concerned about the sulfate coming through a bit much and was thinking a more minerally (thats a word right?) profile maybe like the "munich" style one would use for bocks to help accentuate the hop bite and provide a bit crisper flavor.. water is still my weak point in brewing. I do start with RO/DI water and build from there, and have a decent grasp on it, but really need to learn more (always!)

Yeah, I'm glad mine didn't hit 1.000 or lower. I didn't want it to seem thin or watery. The beer did very well in a club contest. We compared the beer with Surly DAF and liked the home brew better due to increased hop character. Especially aromas. I like Motueka better than Galaxy or even Mosaic.

If I were to do it again, I'd increase hop usage by 5-10 percent.

Mark
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: GigaFemto on April 05, 2019, 07:54:27 AM
I've brewed with plenty of flaked corn before, but not rice. I just figured i'd do a cereal mash if i was to use a large amount of them.

The cereal mash will gelatinize the starches and make them available to the enzymes, but it won't convert the starches to sugars. Similarly, the amyloglucosidase (e.g. UltraFerm) will break down large sugars into small fermentable ones, but won't turn the starches into sugars. You need the amylase enzymes to do that, then the amyloglucosidase can work on the resulting sugars. Most base malts will have enough enzymes to handle a grist with 30% flaked corn or rice, but Munich or other kilned malts will not.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 05, 2019, 08:02:46 AM
Brewfun- Thanks for an excellent reply. Honestly I'd never heard of it until a buddy of mine said "hey can we brew a brut on your system?" and i was like "what the F is that?"

living in central WI and my nearest Beer Club is 40 minutes away and has about 8 members after forming 6 months ago... Talking about civil war surgeons and their practices always makes me think of Ignaz Semmelweis who said doctors should wash their hands before delivering a baby, and was ostracized for such radical thoughts!

I'm curious your thoughts on shelf life, i give my NEIPA 4-6 weeks, my DIPA's 6-8 weeks, are you saying you are getting a consistent 12-16 week or so shelf life out of your Brut without significant flavor changes? I had planned on using a-amylase and glucoamylase and just pils and maris, but I'm being convinced to add some rice and/or corn into the mash. that article was helpful to get a better understanding of the style.

Current adaptations include:
subbing some base for rice or corn or both. I know i've got corn on hand but don't feel the creaminess would work well.
kicking the oyl-200 out for a cleaner yeast. perhaps a kolsch yeast.

How high are folks carbing? I was thinking 4 volumes or so to gain that effervescence.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 05, 2019, 08:04:36 AM
cereal mash just gets returned to standard mash with a-amylase if i'm not mistaken?

I'm definitely in the camp of "I've never brewed with rice before because ABinBev" lol But i'm also heavily into experimentation.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 05, 2019, 08:13:04 AM
Brewfun- Are you really targeting 1600ibus? something about your hop schedule that doesn't seem right... your pilot there is only a hair larger than mine and i can't imagine throwing 500oz+ of hops in the kettle....
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 05, 2019, 08:36:15 AM
I've brewed with plenty of flaked corn before, but not rice. I just figured i'd do a cereal mash if i was to use a large amount of them.

The cereal mash will gelatinize the starches and make them available to the enzymes, but it won't convert the starches to sugars. Similarly, the amyloglucosidase (e.g. UltraFerm) will break down large sugars into small fermentable ones, but won't turn the starches into sugars. You need the amylase enzymes to do that, then the amyloglucosidase can work on the resulting sugars. Most base malts will have enough enzymes to handle a grist with 30% flaked corn or rice, but Munich or other kilned malts will not.


Oh gosh. I've spent too many years geeking out on yeast and using modified malts to really think about much of this. I know most of your common 2-rows have 100-150 lintner and can break down quite a bit of unmodified malts, and i found out that OYL-200 can actually break down dextrine(that was an interesting find), so maybe I'll go back to that yeast, or continue with a cleaner yeast and use enzymes instead for this.

What about just using some rice syrup? I may hate myself a bit for it, but it may make life a bit easier. As i'm reading it, if using rice, I'll first have to cereal mash, then add to the main mash, then add enzyme to help break down. i guess since i already planned on using additional enzymes in this that isn't a huge deal breaker...

I've noticed neither of the recipes listed here have rice in them. Is this because neither of y'all wanted the headache? lol!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 05, 2019, 09:57:52 AM
first, sorry to continue to dump concepts, but would a 20 min dough in rest around 110-120 help with the limit dextrinase to break down the additional branches, OR run your mash at 145 then drop down to 115 for a limit dextrinase rest?
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on April 05, 2019, 12:35:38 PM
Brewfun- Are you really targeting 1600ibus? something about your hop schedule that doesn't seem right... your pilot there is only a hair larger than mine and i can't imagine throwing 500oz+ of hops in the kettle....

Oops. No, of course not. My real name is not Mikkeller!  :-[

I was rounding the ingredient numbers from a scaled down recipe. My hops were still set to pounds.

Recipe: 85 - 90 ibu
Chinook: 10-12 ibu
Mosaic @15 45-47 ibu
Citra WP 15-20 ibu
Simcoe WP 15-20 ibu

Dryhop is correct at 2 lbs total for the batch.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on April 05, 2019, 12:49:31 PM
Brewfun-

I'm curious your thoughts on shelf life, i give my NEIPA 4-6 weeks, my DIPA's 6-8 weeks, are you saying you are getting a consistent 12-16 week or so shelf life out of your Brut without significant flavor changes?

Kegged, I can get 5 months out of the brut without too much hop drop. Now, that's different than saying there's no changes. All beer ages and changes. At 6 months it's definitely too far gone to be sold. I've put a 4 month sales expiration so that customers have a full month to sell it.

With bottles, it has to be on shelves by 2 months and is probably done for at 4 months. I try not to bottle or can IPAs for that reason.

Quote
How high are folks carbing? I was thinking 4 volumes or so to gain that effervescence.

I shoot for 2.7 vols. Over 2.4 is problematic for some tap lines. I don't think the beer benefits from high CO2 because the hops are already foam positive and all that gas can add a bitter chalkiness to something so dry.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 08, 2019, 08:00:54 AM
@Brewfun Any improvements you think you'll make on your next round of it?

I was debating adding any hops other than FWH, WP, and Dry. do you feel the 15min hops really add anything? from my TINY bit of understanding of the style, it shouldn't have much if any bitterness so i was planning on keeping kettle hops to just a touch for binding as FWH and then just whirlpool and dry.

Granted i dont know if i'll ever make a perfect recipe, but i think even beers that i've brewed 10+ times i make a tweak every batch. granted i'm still just a meager homebrewer ;)
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 10, 2019, 07:43:28 AM
Thanks all for the input. Going to go with a Kolsch yeast (wy2565) I just recently brewed a cream ale with I think, shooting for 1.056

40/40 pilsner and maris otter base
15 corn
5 sucrose (instead of rice)

and currently planning single hop variety with NS, but that may change on brew day (saturday!) when I'm actually sifting through hops in the freezer...
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 14, 2019, 09:26:30 PM
Of course, my refractometer is broken... that was a fun thing to find out. not sure how, why, what, where, etc it got broke, but I will have beer.
Generally being a bit of a control freak, i'm just going to let it ride. It'll be ok.. it will be ok... it will be ok...

went with a citra FWH, NS/Citra 30m@175 Whirlpool and will be doing NS/Citra ddh.
went with 40 pils, 25 maris otter, 25 vienna, 10 corn

as an aside, "Ultraferm" i bought in a hurry via online vendor was $5 for "5 gallons"

grabbed some generic powdered Glucoamylase from the LHBS for $2.50 and it appears to have enough to do about 50 gallons... kinda annoyed about that.

Being a pretty regular brewer for the last 10-15 years, with a pretty locked down procedure on a lot of things, and a very nice home built system, this brew day couldn't have gone much worse for me. But in the end, I'm going to have beer, and something to learn from. New refrac on order, I just wish i could keep a hydrometer on hand, seems like they last one brew day for me and then i break them somehow lol.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 24, 2019, 11:56:49 AM
hit .995 a few days ago and has stalled out there. Originally went for 1.056 gravity thinking "oh this will be a nice 5-6% beer" not even thinking about the fact that i'm planning a 100%+ attenuation...

Whoops!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on April 26, 2019, 08:41:39 AM
hit .995 a few days ago and has stalled out there. Originally went for 1.056 gravity thinking "oh this will be a nice 5-6% beer" not even thinking about the fact that i'm planning a 100%+ attenuation...

Whoops!

0.995 is perfect! You're looking at just water and alcohol, of course. How does it taste?
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 26, 2019, 01:09:32 PM
DEEEE LICIOUS

 I went ahead and dropped it in a keg and it's sitting on 2psi while i debate filtering... its hazy, which i definitely expected. I'm just trying to determine if i want to run it through a .5 micron filter to clear or if that'll kill too much of my hop flavor.

I think the Nelson Sauvin really shines in this beer. I'm almost a little sad i decided to mix citra in with it, although i think it also added a delicous bit of passion fruit and citrus, where the NS doesn't really have those tropical fruity notes, i find it to be more grape and stone fruit (some would disagree with stone fruit, but i get it so...)

Definitely excited to run this batch again and change up a bit of the malt bill i think. I wanted to add the vienna for a bit more flavor, but with the enzyme addition i think it kind of killed off the flavor that it normally imparts. I'm thinking a small addition of honey malt (3-5%) could benefit this beer, or perhaps even just some straight honey to give a bit more of a wine/mead like flavor.

I'm also thinking of running a bit different water profile, more chloride to sulphate than the yellow balanced provides to help add that malty mouthfeel considering that the over attenuation kind of kills that. this should help with the body, making it a bit "thicker" without actually adding any gravity. Although, that kind of kills the concept? I'm not sure. Overall its fun to experiment with!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on April 29, 2019, 07:21:11 AM
Definitely excited to run this batch again and change up a bit of the malt bill i think. I wanted to add the vienna for a bit more flavor, but with the enzyme addition i think it kind of killed off the flavor that it normally imparts. I'm thinking a small addition of honey malt (3-5%) could benefit this beer, or perhaps even just some straight honey to give a bit more of a wine/mead like flavor.

With the enzyme, you can use malts with bigger flavor than you might, otherwise. As the enzyme converts the dextrines, you're left with the "essence" of the malt, not the sweetness. This was the most surprising and delightful effect, for me.

I don't get an obvious honey character from honey malt. It adds toastiness to the overall malt flavor. One of the few malts where the aroma doesn't translate to the finished beer.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 29, 2019, 07:52:49 AM
interesting, i definitely get honeylike sweetness and kind of a "foamy" mouthfeel when i use honey malt in 3-5% range.

Went ahead and carbed it up over the weekend, I was 100% surprised at the body this beer had, I expected it to be thin, crisp. It's not!

I was also concerned the alcohol would overwhelm the beer, DON'T EVEN NOTICE IT.

Brought a growler to a friends place, he was shocked. Felt it was better than the two commercial examples he'd had. was also shocked to learn the ABV and FG. I'm really digging this!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: jomebrew on April 29, 2019, 09:14:29 AM
Keep in mind using amylase in the fermenter can increase diacetyl. It is important to have a good diacetyl rest. That has been and still is a problem with Brut IPA. 

I add amylase to all my beers now and try to stop them at 1 plato. Not for the "Brut" effect but for a 30% or so reduction in carbs where my typical final gravity was 3 plato.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 29, 2019, 09:37:19 AM
I perform a diacetyl rest on nearly every beer I brew. No notes of Diacetyl in this beer, so I must have done something right :)

I always hope to have a "Great" beer even on my first time brewing a beer, this exceeded my expectations. I'm excited to improve on a beer i already find to be "Great"

a note on enzymes though. I used Whitelabs "Ultraferm" as my Glucoamylase source. It's expensive. I picked up a generic labeled powdered Gluoamylase enzyme from my lhbs, I'm curious as to if any of you who have brewed this style have had experience between different types/sources of enzyme?

I used 2 vials in my mash (says 1per 5g, mash was for 15g) and 1 vial per 5g fermenting. Being unfamiliar with using enzymes in this manner, could i/should i have used more? less? is there any standard amount per degree P per volume to reach certain goals?
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: jomebrew on April 30, 2019, 08:43:51 AM
I use this one in my fermenter only. I add about 1 teaspoon.  https://fermentationsolutions.com/amylase-enzyme-1-5-oz/ (https://fermentationsolutions.com/amylase-enzyme-1-5-oz/) It does not seem to matter the amylase you use (crushed beano works too) though there may be some differences in the conversion percentage.

The originator of this style, Kim Sturdavant, advises to use it in the mash at 143 - 146f adding it after 20 minutes letting the mash settle. He also suggested you can add it to the kettle after all the wort has been transfered and hold it at 145F got 30 minutes then bring to  boil and brew normally.

For me, adding to the fermenter, performing a good diacetyl rest then packaging as normal has been successful.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on April 30, 2019, 09:36:45 AM
Are you implying that there is no difference in the results between α-amylase and β-amylase additions as well as glucoamylase?

I now feel the need for experimentation. 1g with alpha-amylase, 1g with beta-amylase, and 1 with glucoamylase added to the fermenter of a wort split off for those three different enzyme additions.

from my pretty brief reading up on the enzymes, it would seem the glucoamylase or Alpha-glucosidase debranches maltose to two glucose units. whereas alpha-amylase is primarily responsible more for breaking down starches into maltose and glucose. I'm still mostly an idiot when it comes to all of this so perhaps my understanding is wrong, as it would seem an addition of both would be beneficial at certain points.

However glucoamylase seems to be the enzyme thats "making the style" in some ways, which seems mildly odd to me as my understanding of yeast is that they can use glucose and maltose with no issues, so an enzyme that breaks down maltose into 2xglucose isn't really that helpful?
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on May 01, 2019, 07:11:58 AM
from my pretty brief reading up on the enzymes, it would seem the glucoamylase or Alpha-glucosidase debranches maltose to two glucose units.
Maltose is 2 glucose, joined at the (1-4) bond. Beta Amylase makes this. Alpha Amylase breaks the (1-6) bond. Given enough time, Amylase can produce both glucose and maltose, but not as effectively as Beta Amylase.
Quote
whereas alpha-amylase is primarily responsible more for breaking down starches into maltose and glucose. I'm still mostly an idiot when it comes to all of this so perhaps my understanding is wrong, as it would seem an addition of both would be beneficial at certain points.
For fermentation, maltose and glucose matter. Polysaccharides (aka dextrines) are not usable by beer yeast because they don't produce the enzymes. The flora associated with "wild" fermentation do have the enzymes, but that's not part of making a Brut.

What's important is the cell walls of the yeast. Healthy yeast will utilize maltose. Unhealthy, under pitched, under oxygenated yeast tend to make cell walls that process only glucose. In any all malt wort, glucose is 3% to 4% of the available sugars. Once the glucose is consumed, the yeast stalls out. OTOH, in even high alcohol environments (>6%), yeast will consume glucose (and dextrose). The speed of consumption is determined by how much contact the yeast has, meaning flocculated yeast is slower than when it;s in suspension, of course.
Quote
However glucoamylase seems to be the enzyme thats "making the style" in some ways, which seems mildly odd to me as my understanding of yeast is that they can use glucose and maltose with no issues, so an enzyme that breaks down maltose into 2xglucose isn't really that helpful?
There is a whole family of amylases that all pretty much end up in the same place: digestible sugars.
Glucoamylase is a "digestive" enzyme that has two parts, each working on different substrate. It'll break existing starches into polysaccharides, then break those into simple sugars that yeast can consume.

In terms of fermentation results, there really shouldn't be any functional difference. However, the types of sugar produced and the yeast strain can always interact to give unexpected flavors.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on May 01, 2019, 08:33:56 AM
So the predominate benefit to glucoamylase is that its debranching the maltose into 2 glucose units which yeast is far better equipped to handle than maltose.

beta amylase and alpha amylase both produce glucose and maltose from various starches and polysaccherides. however the addition of the glucoamylase takes the maltose that was produced by the beta and alpha amylases and breaks them down into 2 glucose units is my understanding. therefore i would think that adding additional beta and alpha would have little effect assuming all of the conversions they can do, were done during the mash?

thats where i'm getting lost i think. Beta and Alpha are primarily responsible for conversion during the mash, and i assumed their jobs were done by the time you start boiling... therefore glucoamylase as an addition is beneficial because grain doesn't have enough glucoamylase to perform that function during the mash?


UGH. Time to break out the old biology books :P

answer me this please: Where is the shortfall that the benefits from the addition of enzymes in fermentation?
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: jomebrew on May 01, 2019, 08:48:01 AM
Thanks Brewfun for the detailed breakdown.
Dtapke, I am just keeping it simple for us more relaxed brewers.

My take away from all my research was that there was little difference in the overall conversion and simply, more complex sugars are reduced to simpler sugars for the yeast to consume. I believe what really makes a difference is a healthy fermentation with ample yeast count and fermentation conditions. My experience has backed this up though I have only used the two amylase (the link I posted and White Labs). Both finished the same. I've used amylase in both the mash and fermenter as well as just one or the other. I found I prefer the beers with the amylase is added when I pitch yeast. I've used it in about 12 batches now and am smitten with the results.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: dtapke on May 01, 2019, 09:01:17 AM
LOL that's kind of my takeaway as well, except i do enjoy learning the "How and Why" behind what happens so i can utilize that a bit better in the future.

I'll add one thing, I pitched a pretty healthy count (1.2m/p/ml) had an incredibly vigorous fermentation, and probably ended with 2X as much yeast slurry than what i normally do for that quantity of beer at that rate. So even though i pitched a more than sufficient quantity of viable yeast, they still split like mad!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on May 01, 2019, 12:21:34 PM
So the predominate benefit to glucoamylase is that its debranching the maltose into 2 glucose units which yeast is far better equipped to handle than maltose.
I think you're assuming something that isn't true. Two glucose joined at the (1-4) bond IS maltose. Yeast breaks that bond to make glucose and move fermentation forward through glycolysis to make pyruvate. Amylase enzymes used in mash or later have nothing to do with this process.

Quote
beta amylase and alpha amylase both produce glucose and maltose from various starches and polysaccherides. however the addition of the glucoamylase takes the maltose that was produced by the beta and alpha amylases and breaks them down into 2 glucose units is my understanding. therefore i would think that adding additional beta and alpha would have little effect assuming all of the conversions they can do, were done during the mash?
It depends on your definition of "done." Insofar as the enzymes CAN act while under the pressures of temperature, time and enormous amounts of substrate are concerned, yes, they're "done" when the mash is over.

Alpha Amylase will break the (1-6) bond, creating more straight chain (1-4) bonds, which may or may not get reduced to maltose by Beta Amylase. That's time/temperature dependent. As Alpha Amylase continues, more and more short chain (1-4) glycosides are created, which yeast can break down, but usually don't because easier to ferment sugars go first. Some strains DO ferment those polysaccharides, which we notice as increased attenuation.

In all of this, there is starch and polysaccharide carryover into the fermenter. Alpha and Beta Amylase at fermentation temperatures have a much longer half life, so can break down more of the remaining substrate. Glucoamylase does effectively "do the same thing" but is apparently better at finding substrate to work on, especially in alcohol, and has a longer half life.
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: happy hillbilly on December 18, 2019, 08:53:38 AM
ole Happy here. I was readin up on this Brut beer and i'm relly interested. What confuses me is this enzyme thing. I've used amylase a lot before to convert some adjuncts. I haven't used the beta amylase or gluconase though. according to what i've found online the ranges of these enzymes are as follows:

                                             active range            optimum
beta glucanase                        95-131                       113
beta amylase                          130-150                     148
alpha amylase                        150-160                      158

these are temperatures in F

I do understand that they aren't only active during these temps but the difference in mash temps and fermentation temps seem to say that they wont work during the ferment. Is there something I'm missing here?
I will say that when you put the alpha amylase in a bunch of cooked rice or corn and stir it is amazing to see the conversion real time!
Title: Re: Brut IPA
Post by: brewfun on December 18, 2019, 09:57:22 AM
The thing to remember is that these enzymes exist in the grain itself. As a field seed, the enzymes would do the work of releasing food for the new barley stalk to grow. In malting we take advantage of this very fact, allowing the seed to break down from a steely field grain into a friable (crushable, easily crumbled) product we call malt. There isn't too much difference between soil temperatures and those of fermentation.