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Turbid Mash Profile...
- Thread starter bobo1898
- Start date
I'm not sure the mash profile would be dramatically different than any other - you could use a standard multi step mash and then just "do everything wrong" when sparging (mix, disturb grain bed, etc...) to get a nice cloudy wort.
A lot of time has gone by on this post but I am interested in the subject and a new post would loose context.
The point of a turbid mash, removing wort before enzymes have a chance to simplify starches and sugars, is to make a wort high in dextrins and starches needed for the long mixed ferment. Disturbing the sparge after a normal infusion or temp mash won't achieve that as the enzymes will have already completed their work.
So is there now anyway to describe a turbid mash in BeerSmith? Maybe the Notes section can be used for detailing the wort removal heating and return steps. Maybe this is something to be incorporated in a future version. If something has been added to BeerSmith that would be useful in describing this type of mash profile, that would be useful to know too of course.
The point of a turbid mash, removing wort before enzymes have a chance to simplify starches and sugars, is to make a wort high in dextrins and starches needed for the long mixed ferment. Disturbing the sparge after a normal infusion or temp mash won't achieve that as the enzymes will have already completed their work.
So is there now anyway to describe a turbid mash in BeerSmith? Maybe the Notes section can be used for detailing the wort removal heating and return steps. Maybe this is something to be incorporated in a future version. If something has been added to BeerSmith that would be useful in describing this type of mash profile, that would be useful to know too of course.
Oginme
Grandmaster Brewer
It is an interesting concept.
How do you stop the starch reduction activity except by denaturing the enzymes. So however you plan on doing that, you put those steps in the mash profile.
So for instance, if you allow the mash to start and run it for x number of minutes before you raise the temperature, you can do so by applying heat to the mash tun, infusion of much higher temperature water, or a decoction of the grains. I would think this is all in the timing of activities and all steps which you can build into your mash profile.
If I am missing something, let me know.
How do you stop the starch reduction activity except by denaturing the enzymes. So however you plan on doing that, you put those steps in the mash profile.
So for instance, if you allow the mash to start and run it for x number of minutes before you raise the temperature, you can do so by applying heat to the mash tun, infusion of much higher temperature water, or a decoction of the grains. I would think this is all in the timing of activities and all steps which you can build into your mash profile.
If I am missing something, let me know.
Ultimately, I use(d) the notes section to detail every step/result, and created a step mash in the mash tab (as Brad suggested). My efficiency is normally pretty consistent, so I'm not really too concerned with the turbid mash numbers. I know they'll most likely be lower and it won't bother me because I'm doing everything "incorrectly."
I'm only doing partial turbid because I don't have the equipment to boil a volume for 3-5 hours. This was Mad Fermentationist's suggestion. Here's what I did (use whatever volume works for your equipment profile):
Heated a total of x gallons of water for strike.
Add x gallons of water to hit 113, 10 minutes
Add x gallons of water to hit 136, 10 minutes (in notes I noted this as the first turbid draw)
Decocted x gallons to hit 148, 30 minutes (second turbid draw)
Decocted x gallons to hit 162, 30 minutes
No mash out listed (but mashed out with turbid volume)
Then sparge with my regular volume as I normally do.
I don't know how this turned out because it's still in primary as we speak. Been in there for about 6 months. Debating when I should try it--probably in spring. Didn't realize how old this post was. It took a couple tries to spontaneously capture my own yeast, life happens, you get sidetracked, etc.
It'd be great to see a turbid mash profile in a future version of Beersmith, but I don't know if it's necessary. Convenient, yes--especially for the turbid draws. Necessary? Maybe not.
I'm only doing partial turbid because I don't have the equipment to boil a volume for 3-5 hours. This was Mad Fermentationist's suggestion. Here's what I did (use whatever volume works for your equipment profile):
Heated a total of x gallons of water for strike.
Add x gallons of water to hit 113, 10 minutes
Add x gallons of water to hit 136, 10 minutes (in notes I noted this as the first turbid draw)
Decocted x gallons to hit 148, 30 minutes (second turbid draw)
Decocted x gallons to hit 162, 30 minutes
No mash out listed (but mashed out with turbid volume)
Then sparge with my regular volume as I normally do.
I don't know how this turned out because it's still in primary as we speak. Been in there for about 6 months. Debating when I should try it--probably in spring. Didn't realize how old this post was. It took a couple tries to spontaneously capture my own yeast, life happens, you get sidetracked, etc.
It'd be great to see a turbid mash profile in a future version of Beersmith, but I don't know if it's necessary. Convenient, yes--especially for the turbid draws. Necessary? Maybe not.
Oginme
Grandmaster Brewer
Bobo,
How did you stop the enzymatic activity on your draws? How much wort did you remove at these stages?
I think this is the step that needs to be addressed in BeerSmith in order to give proper temperatures for additional infusions. This is probably easier to perform on a herms or rims system where you can draw off as the wort recycles and the equipment will not miss the volume removed. On a more traditional system, it gets messier. I was able to construct a step infusion mash profile which would possibly work, but again, it is trying to appropriately estimate the temperature of the next infusion which would give me pause in trusting the software.
How did you stop the enzymatic activity on your draws? How much wort did you remove at these stages?
I think this is the step that needs to be addressed in BeerSmith in order to give proper temperatures for additional infusions. This is probably easier to perform on a herms or rims system where you can draw off as the wort recycles and the equipment will not miss the volume removed. On a more traditional system, it gets messier. I was able to construct a step infusion mash profile which would possibly work, but again, it is trying to appropriately estimate the temperature of the next infusion which would give me pause in trusting the software.
I drew off a quart the first time and put it into a pot. I held it around 175 for the duration of the day (although this first draw accidentally got boiled without paying attention). The second draw was 3-4 quarts and added to that first draw, again held at 175 (successfully this time).
I definitely agree with this. Because of my system, I couldn't do additional infusions as a traditional turbid does so I used decoction. I usually draw a little more for the decoction than Beersmith says because (a) my mash will lose a couple degrees from drawing off some, and (b), I'd rather over shoot a few degrees and stir down to target than fall short and try to get it back up.
Yeah in this case, I'll use Brewer's Friend or Green Bay Rackers mash calculator for hitting a target temp with an infusion if I'm doing something weird with my mash. Perhaps that not very accurate though, either?
Oginme said:
I definitely agree with this. Because of my system, I couldn't do additional infusions as a traditional turbid does so I used decoction. I usually draw a little more for the decoction than Beersmith says because (a) my mash will lose a couple degrees from drawing off some, and (b), I'd rather over shoot a few degrees and stir down to target than fall short and try to get it back up.
Oginme said:
Yeah in this case, I'll use Brewer's Friend or Green Bay Rackers mash calculator for hitting a target temp with an infusion if I'm doing something weird with my mash. Perhaps that not very accurate though, either?
Excellent notes. Thanks everyone!
For now I suspect that I will use a profile based on the new RIMS/HERMS Temp Type profiles with a schedule much like bobo1898's (which seems to loosely follow Sparrows "wildBrews", pg 141 (and many similar from the web)) and will use the notes to indicate the wort I draw off and put in a fourth pot to be heated to 190?F denature the enzymes.
The challenge for Brad is that this sort of a profile is not linear in that the extracted wort is accumulated alongside the proceeding mash and added back in at sparge. Even decoction steps proceed linearly as I understand them. It would be cool to have it in the tool, but, for now, the notes will certainly do.
2018-11-17: Additional note: the traditional use of very small amounts of liquor would cause me to not be able to use the RIMS. I suspect that I will use infusion until it's time for vorlauf, or maybe mash-out. Still thinking on the details and trying things in BeerSmith. Cheers!
For now I suspect that I will use a profile based on the new RIMS/HERMS Temp Type profiles with a schedule much like bobo1898's (which seems to loosely follow Sparrows "wildBrews", pg 141 (and many similar from the web)) and will use the notes to indicate the wort I draw off and put in a fourth pot to be heated to 190?F denature the enzymes.
The challenge for Brad is that this sort of a profile is not linear in that the extracted wort is accumulated alongside the proceeding mash and added back in at sparge. Even decoction steps proceed linearly as I understand them. It would be cool to have it in the tool, but, for now, the notes will certainly do.
2018-11-17: Additional note: the traditional use of very small amounts of liquor would cause me to not be able to use the RIMS. I suspect that I will use infusion until it's time for vorlauf, or maybe mash-out. Still thinking on the details and trying things in BeerSmith. Cheers!